D&D and the rising pandemic

[ad_hoc]

You would also have to freeze mortage payments as well.

Didn't say you wouldn't.

There are multiple things to be done.

I'm not going to list each and every one of them.

 

[Hussar]

No, but, @ad_hoc it's never quite as cut and dried as all that. For one, what percentage of rental homes (of whatever stripe) are in need of fairly immediate repair/service? I mean, the stuff that really can't wait like a water leak. I have zero idea. But, again, simply saying, well, renters don't have to pay, owners don't have to pay their mortgages, doesn't always fly. There's so many interconnected parts that no simple answer is going to work.

Interesting thing in Canada - our PM has just said that they aren't going to worry about fraudulent claims right now - they're going to just pay out and then worry about fraud later. To me, this seems like the common sense thing to do, but, apparently, it's horrific to various commenters.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Monies not really the problem with did supply.

The reason the most recent stimulus bill was struck down in the American Congress was because of a combination of reasons, but a large part was because it would cast 3 trillion American dollars, which is a ton of money.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The main two things that we need to do in the USA in order to save lives are:

1. Have as many people as possible be required to stay home. There are already many states that have implemented stay at home orders, but many of them are easing up restrictions. We need a nationwide order that every who isn't an essential worker must stay home. Also, we need better definition of what an essential worker actually is. In my hometown, audiologists are considered essential, as are tobacco/vape sellers, and marijuana dealers.
2. Pay for everyone's food, worldwide, as much as we can. We can pay for it. It will take a lot of money away from those who have more than their fair share. Yes, the economy will continue crashing. Well, it's sad that we'll lose money, but human lives are priceless.

These will prevent death, which the government is currently not doing, or is doing way too late. The most recent stimulus bill should've passed, it would've helped a lot of people, instead of bailing out multi-billion dollar corporations that have more than enough money to support their workers.

 

[Umbran]

Money is not actually a thing though. The solution to people not being able to afford rent is to suspend rent payments. The shelter doesn't disappear if the tenant didn't cut enough hair to pay the rent.

Then the person who owns the property doesn't have revenue. That means they can't do maintenance on the property. If utilities are part of the rental agreement, those can't be paid. Insurance on the property can't be paid. Property taxes also don't get paid if the rent isn't paid, so part of the local government budget disappears. And if there's a mortgage on teh property, that doesn't get paid - and your lending banks have a cash-flow problem at a time you really want them to be able to make small business loans...

Oh, and property taxes often go into the town's education budget. That budget is right now going into trying to manage some kind of distance learning for kids - which isn't a planned part of most school's infrastructure, so they are incurring unforseen costs to try to keep kids learning. Oh, and meal plans - a lot of kids were depending on schools to feed them breakfast and lunch, and they are going hungry without those programs. So, the schools have often been delivering that food, and burning through their budgets doing it. And now those budgets are going to be short even more. Whoops!

You can't just shut off major money flows and not expect to have downstream issues.

 

[Umbran]

You're still going to restrained by capacity though either in factory, production plant, staffing or even freight.

Did you just miss the part where I said we don't actually need all the capacity we currently have? In meats, we currently work under and embarrassment of riches, and that leads us to be wasteful and over-consume. Go ahead, drop capacity. Prices will rise, we will waste less, and cut portion sizes, but still have enough calories and protein.

Picking of fresh vegetables will need to be looked at - may need to go with fewer folks in the fields at a given time, and get artificial lighting for shift work there, or some such. At least they are outdoors, which is much less of an issue in terms of disease spread, as the virus doesn't get concentrated in a closed volume in a field.

Picking and processing of grains does not generally require people shoulder to shoulder, so that's probably manageable.

So, I expect the food supply chain is manageable, if we actually apply our brains.

The question is whether we do apply our brains.

 

[Zardnaar]

Did you just miss the part where I said we don't actually need all the capacity we currently have? In meats, we currently work under and embarrassment of riches, and that leads us to be wasteful and over-consume. Go ahead, drop capacity. Prices will rise, we will waste less, and cut portion sizes, but still have enough calories and protein.

Picking of fresh vegetables will need to be looked at - may need to go with fewer folks in the fields at a given time, and get artificial lighting for shift work there, or some such. At least they are outdoors, which is much less of an issue in terms of disease spread, as the virus doesn't get concentrated in a closed volume in a field.

Picking and processing of grains does not generally require people shoulder to shoulder, so that's probably manageable.

So, I expect the food supply chain is manageable, if we actually apply our brains.

The question is whether we do apply our brains.

Have you worked on a farm, packing house, warehouse etc.

Night time work is dangerous lots to trip over and it's cold. Artificial lighting only goes so far.

It's virtually impossible to have social distancing on production lines, pack houses etc.

Picking fruit off the trees or vegetables isn't the problem. It's where/how it's processed and sorted.

We cut our production 50% and cycled the workers week in week off. Government wage subsidy.

Similar problems in the supply chain, canning factories, meatworks etc.

If they did that 8 weeks ago with total lockdown sure.

Realistically your already had two months of half assed lockdowns and disruptions already. You would probably need another 2-3 months if you did it well starting tomorrow.

Third world already starting to go hungry as well.

 

[ad_hoc]

Then the person who owns the property doesn't have revenue. That means they can't do maintenance on the property. If utilities are part of the rental agreement, those can't be paid. Insurance on the property can't be paid. Property taxes also don't get paid if the rent isn't paid, so part of the local government budget disappears. And if there's a mortgage on teh property, that doesn't get paid - and your lending banks have a cash-flow problem at a time you really want them to be able to make small business loans...

Oh, and property taxes often go into the town's education budget. That budget is right now going into trying to manage some kind of distance learning for kids - which isn't a planned part of most school's infrastructure, so they are incurring unforseen costs to try to keep kids learning. Oh, and meal plans - a lot of kids were depending on schools to feed them breakfast and lunch, and they are going hungry without those programs. So, the schools have often been delivering that food, and burning through their budgets doing it. And now those budgets are going to be short even more. Whoops!

You can't just shut off major money flows and not expect to have downstream issues.

Or you could, you know, tax the ultra rich fairly and not give them extra money when there is a crisis.

Other countries are able to manage just fine.

What you're saying doesn't have to be the way it is. Everyone else around the world finds America to be ridiculous partly because of Florida but mostly because of this sort of thing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or you could, you know, tax the ultra rich fairly and not give them extra money when there is a crisis.

Other countries are able to manage just fine.

What you're saying doesn't have to be the way it is. Everyone else around the world finds America to be ridiculous partly because of Florida but mostly because of this sort of thing.

Broadly speaking he's right. They can just evict or even if they can't they can just refuse new Tennants.

So without rent money will go under and the people probably get evicted anyway.

Or once the freeze ends just Jack the rent up so in effect you're backpaying.

You also want money being spent in a recession/depression.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In any consumer based economy, one of the best ways to jumpstart it if it’s flagging is with consumer spending. You get the money flowing through/out of the hands of economic actors, it’s like a shot of adrenaline. And the people most likely to spend money are the ones at the base of the economic pyramid. In the USA, people in the lower economic strata spend spend on average 95%+ of their income- some spending more than they earn, accumulating expensive CC debt in the process. In contrast, those in the upper percentages save 30% or more of their income.

This is part of why Arthur Laffer’s supply side economics only works under economic conditions that haven’t been seen in the USA since before WW2. More of the money sent into the hands of the rich is saved, and is thus taken out of circulation.

(That’s also why austerity programs are usually counterproductive. They take money out of circulation.)

Which is why, unless a large business is crucial to the actual economic and strategic well being of the country, they shouldn’t be eligible for bailouts*. Failure IS an option in true capitalism. See Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations.

Americsn mega-businesses have not only subverted that notion, their salary structures compared to their European and Asian competitors leaves them inherently less able to adapt to changing market conditions...and thus more likely to need a bailout. As has been put by certain economists, they have have internalized profit while outsourcing risk.

TL;DR: the current US pandemic economic recovery programs are poorly designed and lack proper oversight to actually aid a rapid recovery.


* at least, not without LOTS of strings attached.