D&D @ High Levels = No Problem?

[Loonook]

One of the largest problems with high-level play is power creep... and the sad thing is that it shouldn't be.

There is no godly reason that every spell ever put to text (WotC or otherwise) exists in your game. It just isn't necessary. Those who do not define what they consider 'off-limits' or ideas as such will, inexorably, complain and pule.

The other issue (which usually teams with this one) is the 'rush' technique of many DMs. While personally I have liked playing in the ill-termed 'sweet spot', I have no issue getting into those high level games in most systems. Why? Because we work up to them. Characters built from the ground up in one go are almost always going to have more dangerous connotation than those which are started and then grow naturally. Forty source books open vs. the Core to start... it gets funky real quick.

I like high level play, but I like it in a realm where we don't have every possible cheesy spell combination available. There are lovely benefits to such advantages, but I would prefer the interesting use of a few simple spells from Core than having to worry about the PC who approaches and says he had this spell, this one, got this one permanent...

So on, and so on, and so on. Same goes for warriors... spellslingers aren't the only ones which get worrisome. Sometimes it is nice to have that weapon you grew up with; but most people would prefer to get that shiny +5 off the bat.

Maybe I just have more fun combining some numbers and some play, than one side or the other.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Our groups has never had a problem recalculating buffs. It's addition. I've never understood why if someone says "ok, buffs #1, 3, and 7 are no longer active" that it takes more than 15 seconds to re-add your remaining ones and establish the new number that matters. Are most players that bad at math?

Yes.

Or to elaborate a bit:
- Multiple buffs have common bonus types. It is not just removing a +4 from your character sheet. it is removing a +4, and checking if there is still the +2. And this particular buff affected not just one roll, but two or three (roll can also be AC). And you have to check for each what applies and no longer applies. It is not hard in the way you need a calculator for it and a degree in math. It is hard in the way that you have to systematically check all your total modifiers. And this "systematical" check is not fun. If I was a pilot, I'd probably compare it with going through the pre-flight checklist. It must be done, and it is important for what I am going to do, but it's not really the reason why I am here.

The best way I figured in the end was to just create a Matrix with the most likely combination of buffs affecting my character. It improves the speed, though way to often, there are still some unaccounted modifiers - a new buff spell, a "debuff" ability from a monster/NPC (ability damage/drain is the worrisome, since it is not predictable).

 

[BSF]

High-level play is awesome when I'm running a game for a small, tight-knit group that's was interested in the campaign world and knew what they were capable of. The road-testing of abilities, changing tactics, and constant surprises as people pulled something new out of their bag of tricks made it fun.

Arwink hits it here for me. Everybody involved has to have a certain level of synchronization and investment into the game. Without that, the energy invested just starts to feel too much like work.

 

[Kvantum]

This is the second campaign (Shackled City and now Age of Worms) my usual group and I have gotten into low-Epic (21-24). The math can be a major issue for some at this point, and it takes a LOT more prep work as a DM, but it can definitely be worth it, if you have a good idea of what to expect out of your players. Know who'll min-max out the wazoo, who'll be relatively ineffective in combat no matter the level, class, or race, who's the comic relief, etc.

A laptop is an Epic DM's best friend, other than a good group of players. Excel/OpenOffice Calc is almost a must for keeping track of skill points if you build NPCs frequently, especially ones with multiple prestige classes, and definitely for rogues. Develop a Word/Writer document template for character sheets and keep versions of your PCs' sheets updated. Even if your PCs don't lose their sheets every so often, it's easy to give them a new one after the last version gets so cluttered with updates as to be illegible, and it gives you the best way to tailor adventures to their particular abilities.

 

[DM_Jeff]

There's been some awesome replies whilst I slept! For one thing I am really glad I'm not the only one enjoying our teen-level games, that's great.

In fairness, I guess without proper prep time it might not be as fun. When I run a game (any, but high-specifically) I scan and print or photocopy all foe pages then follow the 5-step program:

1) Circle Saving throws, spell resistance, and damage reduction.
2) Highlight Armor Class (and touch AC) and hit points.
3) Underline grapple and attack/full attack lines
4) Look up the pages of only the highest two levels worth of spells the thing can cast and write them in the margin for quick lookup.
5) Cross out in-block feats that can't be used during combat and circle those that can (like Combat Casting, Power Attack, etc.)

Without this I imagine combats might be a little slower. As for the number of damage dice, as soon as we start doing "10danything" we revert to the optional high-dice rules WotC used in the dungeon delve and printed on their site to cut down on rolling and math.

-DM Jeff

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

As for the number of damage dice, as soon as we start doing "10danything" we revert to the optional high-dice rules WotC used in the dungeon delve and printed on their site to cut down on rolling and math.

-DM Jeff

Link?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

1) Circle Saving throws, spell resistance, and damage reduction.
2) Highlight Armor Class (and touch AC) and hit points.
3) Underline grapple and attack/full attack lines
4) Look up the pages of only the highest two levels worth of spells the thing can cast and write them in the margin for quick lookup.
5) Cross out in-block feats that can't be used during combat and circle those that can (like Combat Casting, Power Attack, etc.)

This is good stuff. I tend to make stat blocks for all enemies (even if I'm not modifying anything, because it helps familiarize me with what they can do), and these suggestions will be my new final steps.

 

[Corsair]

This is good stuff. I tend to make stat blocks for all enemies (even if I'm not modifying anything, because it helps familiarize me with what they can do), and these suggestions will be my new final steps.

When I was playing my DM's homebrew summoner class or a druid, I had given the stat blocks for my various summoned creatures a once over like this. I highlighted defensive things in one color (AC, Saves, Spell Resistance, Immunities) and attacks in a different color (full attack, breath weapon, important SLAs, important combat feats).

 

[kensanata]

I usually copy the important stats to a piece of paper: HP, DR, FH (fast healing), AC, touch, Fort, Ref, Will, SR, Trip roll (because one of the PCs is a tripper), Atk and Dam. Assume that all buffs have been cast and only use the buffed stats, pick two or three spells and write down a short version. Chain Lightning turns into "DC 20 half, 30ft from each other, 15d6, half for others" and I'll have a few 15d6 with half and quarter values written down before the session begins. Earthquake turns into "8d6 budg. Ref DC 15 half, all are pinned and take 1d6/rd".

I stopped designing NPCs. I take published ones. These days, I'd no longer pull out NPC Generator 2. Instead, I'd invent out of thin air by picking numbers as appear to be appropriate. "120 HP, bow +17/+17/+17/+12 (1d8+6)" -- a mighty enemy archer. That's it.

What helps is getting impatient openly at the table. Complain about spell casters taking too long to pick spells, "whaaat we had all this time and you still haven't picked spells? Maaaaan... Prepare a standard list or two at home!" Or other people that want to figure out the optimal move: "Hey, come on, you don't have enough time. Just do it! Come on, do it now. 6! 5! 4! There we go... Thanks." Or people offering advice until the undecided player is utterly confused: "Hey, stop talking! You get to do whatever you want to do. Don't listen to them. Do what you think is right. There. Thanks. Very cool." I find that this kind of audio feedback also helps to instill a sense of urgency. Also be quick to offer delays. "Not sure? Delay! Wait for X, makes sense, doesn't it?"

 

[DM_Jeff]

Link?

Sure!

http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060929a

And in fact here is the exact text I was referring to in that article:

Dice Expressions I Wouldn’t Wish on My Worst Enemy

Another weird thing: You might notice that the damage for the rogue’s sneak attack, the wizard’s meteor swarm, and other high-level effects isn’t the “plus 10d6 sneak attack” or “6d6 four times” that you’re used to. But if you deconstruct the damage expressions on the character sheet, you’ll see that the average damage is about the same.

We wanted the Delve to be an hour of concentrated D&D, and the time-consuming arithmetic of high-level damage ate into actual play too much. I really didn’t want the spellcasters adding up 20d6 every single round. And while the big dice expressions are tough on players, the DM has it even worse. The CR 22 black dragon has a breath weapon that deals 24d4 points of acid damage. Even if you efficiently “chunk” the dice together, you’re still looking at fourteen or fifteen operations, which will make the game grind to a halt. And only the most masochistic DM would enjoy adding all those dice up.

So we decided to just codify what most DMs (and to a lesser extent players) have been doing for years. We rebuilt the damage expressions so that the dice accounted for about one-third of the output and the constant (the number after the plus) accounted for the remaining two thirds. And I rounded up to the next 5, just to make it look even simpler still.

That’s something you’re going to see more from us in future products: rational dice expressions that assume you’ve got better ways to spend your time than doing a lot of arithmetic in your head. Yeah, we know it’s fun for you to drop a big pile of twenty 6-siders on the table. But it’s only fun the first time, and everyone else at the table is waiting for their turn while you’re having fun with dice. The game flows better (and you get quicker gratification for your high-level effects) if you convert those unwieldy “20d6 points of damage” expressions to more rational “one-third dice, two-thirds constant” expressions. If you’re playing in a mid- to high-level game, try it out.

-DM Jeff