[D&D history/development] I wonder why...

[Milagroso]

In 3.5 a short sword costs 10 gp. I'm aware of no edition of DnD that ever charged 70 gp for a shortsword.

Also, comparing apples to apples would make it tough to use modern prices for technology as a guage. I think one of the only things to remain constant in history is that a days work is a days work (and even the "day" isn't the same). I don't know what Starfire Ltd's actual process is for creating swords - I find $70 to be very low if they're actually smithing the thing by hand.

[snip]

In any case it's a complicated issue. An historical price for weaponry could be gained by finding actual prices, comparing them to actual daily labor rates, and then using the 1 sp/day price for DnD to translate them into DnD prices.

Yeah... I don't know where I got that price quote from. I'm going to chalk that one up to insomnia. But, you're right the cost of a shortsword in my 2nd Ed AD&D book was 10gp. The price for a Starfire Ltd. Shortsword in 1995 was around $70.00 plus tax and shipping. I assure you they make fine quality hand-forged weapons with a lifetime guarantee. They are primarily designed for stage combat and reenactments, however when sharpened become deadly blades. The two that I own have withstood 12 years of stage combat and steel-on-steel sparring and are both still in excellent condition.

Well, thats irrelevant really, I'm just trying to point out that quality weapon that any respectable rogue would not mind having was $70.00 equated to 10gp in the PHB would indicate that the value of 1gp is $7.00. Now, the same weapon goes for about $140.00... hang on let me check their site real quick - okay its actually $125.00. Now take into consideration that the weapon is in fact designed for stage combat, and lets double its value presuming that is how much a weapon designed for melee and murder would cost. So... if my math is right that would mean that 1gp:$15.00. Conversely, the $20.00 USD gold coin appears to be the right size and weight for what I would consider to be an ideal gold piece coin. But then we still have the same problem with the cost for goods versus skilled labor and or cash value.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Why do mages get 1d4 hit dice? Maybe if there were some great game fiction where magic was a disease...

Why do mage duels stink so badly? Who wins initiative? Okay, 90% of the time, you're the winner (in a random thing as opposed to getting time to buff.)

Why have clerics and paladins? The clerics, heavily armed and spellcasting and turning undead, are just slightly less useful than the paladins whose innate abilities and superior combat abilities aren't quite up to the clerics. In the 'old' days with ability requirements, the whole CHR 17 limited 'em but not any longer.

Why have numerous abilities that rely on several different stats? The paladin, once again, is a good example of this. Want to be able to turn well? Want to be able to smite well? Want to be a decent fighter? Now mind you, with ability bonuses coming in much lower than previous editions this isn't as bad but...

Did the designers ever look at the original recommended reading list and go, "Man, we've strayed so far from the original inspiration that you simply cannot run these types of games without ripping out the guts and redesigning many core aspects of the system."

 

[Milagroso]

I agree that the concept of a Paladin has degraded to be a more melee and less magic using cleric.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: the prices of goods & gold pieces.

Its always hard to guage the price of goods seperated by hundreds or even thousands of years, especially since prices can change independently of the prices of similar goods, and some may even decline in relative value.

For example: when I was born, a Lotus Esprit Turbo cost $10K, and costs $70K+ now. The sedan my parents had was about $1500...an equivalent one today costs $30k. Relative to the Lotus, the family sedan has actually increased in price.

 

[DarkKestral]

Re: the prices of goods & gold pieces.

Its always hard to guage the price of goods seperated by hundreds or even thousands of years, especially since prices can change independently of the prices of similar goods, and some may even decline in relative value.

For example: when I was born, a Lotus Esprit Turbo cost $10K, and costs $70K+ now. The sedan my parents had was about $1500...an equivalent one today costs $30k. Relative to the Lotus, the family sedan has actually increased in price.

Ah, but one forgets the incremental improvements. I once saw a car company claim that without all the safety and fuel economy measures built into modern cars, we would have low-end consumer cars that would perform better on the quarter-mile, handle better, and be more durable than a '50s era racing vehicle, for prices that in would match the inflation-adjusted 1950s purchase price of 1950s vehicles. That claim may not be true, but if it is, then it offers a interesting look at the reality of pricing. So that "equivalent" isn't nearly so "equivalent" as one might guess... but that's not the only product that's true for.

And that's just in the last 60 years...

 

[WayneLigon]

Did the designers ever look at the original recommended reading list and go, "Man, we've strayed so far from the original inspiration that you simply cannot run these types of games without ripping out the guts and redesigning many core aspects of the system."

That's odd. I know that list very well indeed, and with 3E it was finally possible for my characters to be like those heroes. Certainly not before.

 

[gizmo33]

Conversely, the $20.00 USD gold coin appears to be the right size and weight for what I would consider to be an ideal gold piece coin.

A DnD gold piece has 9 grams of gold, that would be more than $20. I believe the $20 is just the number printed on the face of the coin, I think they're worth far more as metal and AFAIK never traded for just $20.

With regard to the crafting of replica weapons, what I was saying is that in terms of effort/man-power required, a forged weapon is probably much more expensive (forged of ore carted from the site, etc.) than it's non-hi-tech equivalent.

 

[gizmo33]

If you travel outside the US (and the rest of the developed world), it answers the question nicely.

But that's exactly my point and I'm not sure why you're not understanding this. IF I travel to some part of the world and live there long enough to instinctively absorb the economic realities THEN I will understand your analogy regarding the value of the gold piece. Maybe I'm trying to answer a different question than you are. Taking some traveller's checks to Africa and staying there for a week probably wouldn't do much for my understanding of the situation.

An agrarian subsistence economy bears little resemblance to our modern US economy.

Every time I get into a debate with someone on the internet about how "A is like B" or "A is not like B" there's never really any sensible basis for comparison. One question is where people in ANY economy have a basic sense of value. I'm not sure why there is a fundemental difference between silver coins, cowrie shells, or bushels of wheat when it comes to value - other than some may be easier to move than others. Also, the DnD coin AFAIK is not backed by some central bank, it's value is the value of the metal in the coin, making it, as far as I can tell, subject to the same situation as a bushel of wheat (there's no indication that the coins are debased, in fact, considering the exchange rates for basic metals given in "trade goods" it seems to me that a gold coin is 100% pure gold (which is strange)).

but it's perhaps even more important to realize that the peasant rarely deals in metal coins, and he doesn't live around the corner from any kind of store where he might spend that silver. His gratitude might be tempered by his fear that someone will find out he has silver and come to take it away.

All of these are cultural-specific details that aren't really addressed in the DnD rules. I'm not even sure they're applicable for Late Medieval Europe. AFAIK peasants were paying their rents in cash towards the end of the period. Who would steal his silver? They could just as easily steal his cattle or horses, worth far more than a few silver pieces (and easier to find).

In answering the question of value, I think it's not inappropriate to assume that peasants can move modest sums of cash pretty readily. A bolt of wool or cow can be purchased at the local market with the silver.

What's the price of a slave? What's the price of land that includes serfs to work it? Laborers produce very little wealth beyond what it takes to feed, clothe, and shelter them, so I suspect it would be fairly cheap to "buy someone's life" in a D&D economy -- and it would still only really pay off if you kept them hungry and in rags.

Again, this is a matter of the cultural details. Someone selling themselves into slavery is doing so to avoid debter prison (or the salt mines) so that's not exactly a seller's market. Laborers presumably produce at least 1 sp worth of value or else it wouldn't be worth hiring them - and using the "poor" wealth guidelines in the DMG I could probably come up with a better number - at least 6 gp/month IIRC. I wouldn't think that a peasant in average circumstances values his life as that of a slave.

A pre-modern economy bears no resemblance to the modern US economy we live in.

Once again we're at an impasse with the whole "A is nothing like B" statement. I go to the store and take a few dollars with me and buy a loaf of bread. The PHB gives a price for a loaf of bread, only there I'm taking some copper pieces with me. Even if I pay for the bread with a cart load of wood, there's still a general sense of the value of the goods being exchanged, and IMO it's not unreasonable to translate it all to a currency standard first. Otherwise you'd be suggesting that one week I'd go to the market and buy bread for one cartload of wood and the next I'd buy it for two - with no drought or other event to explain the difference. Other than variations in quality I'm not sure how using the term "pre-modern" explains those differences.

My point is that "the" value of a silver piece varies tremendously depending on who you are. A peasant isn't even part of the monetary economy. He doesn't buy or sell things for metal coins. His life is typical of almost everyone in the pre-modern economhy.

I agree (somewhat), but I think this is even the case of the value of a dollar, it buys far less designer clothing, for example. So someone who is rich in the modern world will find that a dollar is worth less in their economy than a poor person. That's why I was trying to use a $20-30K salary range for comparison. In anycase, like I've said elsewhere, I think your suggestion that peasants don't use money is overstated for what I think is the appropriate time period.

The merchant is the one guy thinking like us, with a somewhat modern outlook toward money and economics.

But we're not talking about shares of stock or currency debasement. We're talking about a peasant trading a few silver pieces to a yeoman farmer for some hams. The yeoman farmer takes the silver to the market town and buys a bolt of dyed wool. The wool merchant takes the silver to the docks and buys a vial of spice. Without weird legal restrictions I don't see how all of this is inappropriate for a historical period that matches DnD. I would assume all significant agriculture is done within a short distance of a market town - meaning the bulk of peasants live in such a neighborhood.

It is distasteful for him to count coins and handle accounts.

Perhaps ideally, but "noble propoganda" aside, those guys have mercenaries and such to pay and they certainly borrowed a heck of a lot of cash from merchants in the period to be claiming they're not interested in it (edit: oh, and Scutage?). And again, it's a fairly general statement in history books that land-owners were more than happy to take cash from peasants as rent payments - no "insult" perceived AFAICT. In the historical period I think there is a gap between the ideal and reality, and then once you're in the DnD world, those issues are probably particular to the campaign.

Then, when he leaves, he honors them with a gift of cash. It's not a modern transaction.

The core issue IMO is what the perceived value of a silver piece is - that's not something that these cultural issues would address. So is the noble honoring the innkeeper with 4 cp? or 400 gp? Without some perception of value, how do people even decide what they're getting/giving as a gift? The answer to me is that, nuances of "pre modern etc. etc." aside, there IS a perceived value for coins, and that it's as constant across social classes as it would be for the same wealth disparities in modern times (minus some of the social safety net factors that boosts the low end).

 

[Mark Hope]

Why the difference between swords of sharpness and vorpal swords? I can understand the idea of a weapon that slices your head off in one blow, but why have two that only really differ from each other by a single point? What was the inspiration for this difference? The same goes for the two varieties of life draining sword (nine lives stealer and the other one that drains levels). Are these modelling specific archetypes or just intended to be more powerful versions of the other?

And frogs. What is it with frogs in earlier editions? From Temple of the Frog to the frog god in Greyhawk Ruins to the slaadi - they're everywhere. Are they really creepy to most people and I never noticed. I really like frogs. And toads. My gf in particular sends out a subliminal toad-homing-beacon. But that's another story.

 

[Milagroso]

And frogs. What is it with frogs in earlier editions? From Temple of the Frog to the frog god in Greyhawk Ruins to the slaadi - they're everywhere. Are they really creepy to most people and I never noticed. I really like frogs. And toads. My gf in particular sends out a
subliminal toad-homing-beacon. But that's another story.

And don't forget about the Bullywugs.