D&D is an Adult Game?

[FireLance]

Of course not! Next you'll be telling me that roleplaying is a form of adult entertainment.

 

[Ariosto]

Has D&D always "glossed over" violence? I think that's as questionable -- in a "let's define our terms" way -- as how "adult" graphic depictions are. Pornography is not particularly mature, which is what "adult" has meant to me in the D&D context.

 

[pawsplay]

In my experience, D&D has always been played by adults or, in a (significant) minority, by teens that would probably be considered exceptionally mature (in a non-value-judgment sense) in intellect, creativity, and taste. (In other words, in those cases in my past in which teens (including me) -- or even more rarely, pre-teens -- played D&D, those teens also read books targeted at adults, saw movies targeted at adults, watched TV targeted at adults, and so on.)

IMO, D&D by its very nature has to be toned down (or significant elements completely ignored) to get a PG-13 rating.

Does this make it an "adult" game? I guess my inclination would be in the affirmative.

I think the idea that young kids who are into D&D have unusually adult interests is a very plausible one. I started playing when I was not quite nine, but I also read The Hobbit three times by the time I was nine, by which time I had also read the entire 1969 World Book encyclopedia. By ten, I was reading Heinlein and Asimov's novels and fascinated by lasers, Charlemagne's empire, the Arthurian romances, and Italian cooking.

 

[Hussar]

In my experience, D&D has always been played by adults or, in a (significant) minority, by teens that would probably be considered exceptionally mature (in a non-value-judgment sense) in intellect, creativity, and taste. (In other words, in those cases in my past in which teens (including me) -- or even more rarely, pre-teens -- played D&D, those teens also read books targeted at adults, saw movies targeted at adults, watched TV targeted at adults, and so on.)

IMO, D&D by its very nature has to be toned down (or significant elements completely ignored) to get a PG-13 rating.

Does this make it an "adult" game? I guess my inclination would be in the affirmative.

My experience is similar.

However, what in D&D's "very nature has to be toned down" to get a PG-13 rating?

What products would rate anything more than PG-13?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What products would rate anything more than PG-13?

If you summarized the Al Pacino remake of "Scarface" in three paragraphs, what rating would your summary have?

But is "Scarface" an adult movie? (That is, a movie intended for and appropriate for adults. I suspect an "adult movie" version would be "Scar"-something else.)

Similarly, the "summary" of D&D, as present in most sourcebooks and adventures, is relatively tame. But the concepts, themes, and action in play are almost always hyper-violent (at least), and quite often morally and ethically profound. In order not to have the hyper-violence (at least), and arguably the other adult stuff, D&D has to be toned down. It's there's by default, in play, even if it's not there in summary.

 

[pawsplay]

My experience is similar.

However, what in D&D's "very nature has to be toned down" to get a PG-13 rating?

What products would rate anything more than PG-13?

Anything involving slaad would be a good starting place.

 

[Scarbonac]

"Random Prostitute" tables (DMG)

You rang?

[This post is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only and not to infringe on any copyrights or trademarks; void where prohibited -- may cause plagues of boils, swarms of locusts or the death of Civilization if taken in large amounts. Contains no cyclamates!]

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

What products would rate anything more than PG-13?

I don't know that there have been any, not from the mainstream game publishers, anyway.

It seems a lot of people are conflating the product D&D with the potential of D&D. It's certainly true that a campaign can delve into all kinds of deep moral questions, sordid relationships, heinous acts of violence and so forth, and has since the beginning. But that's not really all that explicit in the books, aside from a little poorly drawn T&A, severed limbs, and a demon or two. And skin grubs. (Yeah, they still give me nightmares.)
[edit: He suddenly notices the infamous harlot table posted immediately above, and responds with a hearty facepalm: "D'oh!"]

I'm thinking back to when I first started playing as a kid. I'm pretty sure those goofball campaigns were PG13, just because I was kid and didn't know any better. Nothing in the rules lead me to put more into the game than that. All the dark, twisted stuff layered onto the game since then came from the messed up souls of me and fellow players, no help from TSR needed.

Granted, there must have been something "inappropriate" in someone's opinion, because it was clearly enough to launch that whole satanism thing in the 80's. But that's a completely different tangent.

 

[Snoweel]

It doesn't matter. I'm a geek, so I love anything that is meant to appeal to 15 year old boys. Pirates, swordfights, dragons, ninjas, and zombies - all awesome.

This forever and ever and ever.

 

[Lanefan]

Sigh...where do I start?

First off, "Adult" in this case does not equate with bare breasts or arms being ripped off or NC-17; and while I admit 'adult' might have been a wrong term for me to use in the first place I can't think of a better one so it's going to have to do.

"Adult" I use here merely as a denominator of age - college age and higher - and-or level of maturity and comprehension at any age.

The main game* IMO should be primarily designed for and marketed to adults; and that's the point I'm trying to address.
* - there also needs to be a starter game designed for teens and new players of all ages that can lead into the main game later, but that's a different thing (and it seems they're now doing a 4e version of this; good on 'em if true).

Example 1:

Pull out your 4 DMG's. Yes, one from each major edition (1-2-3-4). Hell, while you're at it pull out each PH and MM as well. Read a bit of each and you'll find:

The 1e books were written for adults, plain and simple; so were most if not all of the expansion books, and this tells me that's who the game was designed for.
The 2e books were written for the 12-15 age group; TSR had decided that was going to be their primary market. The expansion books in some cases took on a slightly more scholarly tone, but not much; and it all points to a game designed for teens...or lower.
The 3e books were written (mostly) for adults; and I'd hazard a guess that this one factor alone played a larger role in 3e's success in re-energizing the hobby than a lot of people are willing to admit. The expansion books were kind of all over the place; paradoxically the one with the NC17-est content (BoEF) suffered from the least mature writing.
The 4e books can't seem to make up their mind, and thus unfortunately just end up reading vaguely like high-school textbooks. The expansions since seem to be slowly improving, though I admit to not having read that many.

Example 2:

In the market research leading up to 3e, WotC had already pre-determined who their market would be: those under 35 at the time. And while 3e was at least written at a college level, I remain convinced that certain design elements (assumed number of players, campaign length, level-up frequency just to name a few) would have been quite different had the researchers taken data from all age groups and treated it equally.

Example 3:

WotC seems to want to use 4e to at least to some extent try and get some of the $ that are going into WoW and its ilk, and I have no problem with that. But instead of marketing D+D as an alternative to WoW, why not market it as the end point of a progression in one's gaming life of which WoW was merely a (less mature) phase? As in:

"Tired of a computer doing your thinking for you? Play D+D, where you can think for yourself!"
"D+D: real excitement! Real fun! And best of all, real people!"
"(WoW) Restricted by a program or (D+D) limited only by your imagination? Your call."
[and so on...]

Lanefan