Alexander123
First Post
I'm not sure what you're saying.
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D&D: mostly a boys game?
- Thread starter Alexander123
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If gender roles were really genetically based then there wouldn't need to be so much social and physical pressure spent enforcing them. They would also show up regardless of culture.
I myself have never played in a gaming group with out at least one woman in it. I've seen 2 out of 5, 3 out of 5, and 3 out of 6. All different groups.
And just for fun let's look at their roles.
-Dwarf sword and board fighter/warden
-Tiefling Warlord
-Dragonborn two-hander Fighter
-Half-elf Sorceress
-Elven Bow Ranger
-Human Dual-Wielding Fighter
-Human Sorceress
So uh, no, it's not a boys game.
I myself have never played in a gaming group with out at least one woman in it. I've seen 2 out of 5, 3 out of 5, and 3 out of 6. All different groups.
And just for fun let's look at their roles.
-Dwarf sword and board fighter/warden
-Tiefling Warlord
-Dragonborn two-hander Fighter
-Half-elf Sorceress
-Elven Bow Ranger
-Human Dual-Wielding Fighter
-Human Sorceress
So uh, no, it's not a boys game.
GreyLord
Legend
Yes, it IS mainly a boys game.
In the beginning, mostly boys/men played Wargames, and that was the primary audience it originally drew from.
As time went on, you would find that a majority playing the game were boys, though the number of girls/women increased.
Then the fad died, and it became even more of a boys game. Today, if you go to any hobby section with D&D, or hobby store that caters to D&D, normally the customers will be an overwhelming percentage of males.
It doesn't negate that women can play the game, it's simply that the percentage of players is overwhelmingly composed of a male audience in relation to how many females play the game.
In the beginning, mostly boys/men played Wargames, and that was the primary audience it originally drew from.
As time went on, you would find that a majority playing the game were boys, though the number of girls/women increased.
Then the fad died, and it became even more of a boys game. Today, if you go to any hobby section with D&D, or hobby store that caters to D&D, normally the customers will be an overwhelming percentage of males.
It doesn't negate that women can play the game, it's simply that the percentage of players is overwhelmingly composed of a male audience in relation to how many females play the game.
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
Your premise is false.
Traditional/historical "roles" (which were by no means universal across humanity) has nothing to do with a game created 30 years ago, in terms of whether or not it's a "boys" game.
Further, there's plenty of women that play D&D. They may not be the _majority_ but they're certainly present. WotC did a survey back in 2000; while some folks might argue about certain aspects of it, it's one of the few solid bits of research we have regarding the hobby. You can find a link here:
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0 -- Wizards of the Coast
Notice conclusion 2:
This was a bit over a decade ago; D&D was barely staggering along, the tabletop RPG market was stagnant as there wasn't the option of the internet for 3rd party publishing, and 3.x hadn't even hit the scene. Additionally, there were already women _in_ the rpg industry in various capacities. The gal that ran TSR into the ground, Liz Danforth (Liz Danforth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia also did significant work on Tunnels & Trolls 5th ed) Margaret Weiss (Margaret Weis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you know...Dragonlance?) P.D. Breeding-Black (almost single-handedly responsible for the look of Talislanta), Maryann Siembieda (Kevin Siembieda's now ex-wife who was quite involved in Palladium games), Jennifer Schoonover (Chaos University for Gurps and a consistent Editor for various RPG books over the years) ... the list keeps going on.
And there's a whole other crop of women out there designing really slick games and self-publishing 'em, as well as having them show up in brick-n-mortar stores. Jenna Moran (Nobilis, Exalted, and more), Elizabeth Shoemaker (Blowback among others), Jenni Dowsett (The Silver Kiss of the Magical Twilight of the Full Moon)... it's really not hard to find.
There's an interesting interview that was done here:
The 20 Sided Women Project: Interview with Jennifer Schoonover: Woman in the Gaming Industry
It's a bit of a tightrope she walks, trying to explain the male/female thing in rpgs and trying to make it _not_ be simply a "male" vs "female" thing.
Claiming that D&D is a "boys" game, is like claiming that housework is a "woman's job". The activities are not gender-biased because of some inherent male/female -ness. Actually giving birth? Right now, yeah that's a woman's activity. There really isn't a whole lot to legitimately slap a gender label on.
First... no kidding, you're "not a feminist".
Second... let me get this straight... you're actually claiming that: Courage, Discipline, Integrity, Loyalty, and Respect for others are _MANLY_ virtues?!?!? [Read that as being flabbergasted and dumbfounded; anger is completely pointless in the face of such a claim].
Boy howdy, I can tell you I know a fair number of women that would cheerfully line-up, just to give you a crack alongside the head. And I don't mean some bitch-slap either, I mean a full on right-cross, left hook sorta deal. You've pretty much managed to insult half the planet there. There's also a bit of a nasty implication about those "manly virtues" being tied to going to war; an uncharitable person might see not just a slam against women in general, but a slam against anyone that isn't militarily inclined too.
Sidenote: D&D? Not really "about going to war". The rules explicitly reward killing things and taking their stuff. Sometimes it involves war, frequently it involves genocide, but there's also plenty of D&D games that aren't about either, despite the default nature of the game giving XP for killing something.
I am stunned. Really and truly stunned. On the one hand, I'd like to thank you for attempting to behave in a slightly modern fashion by claiming: "(I'm not of course saying that women shouldn't have careers or anything like that.)" On the other hand, it's a claim I personally find difficult to credit though and it causes me to think you don't _actually_ thing women should have careers, you're just reluctant to come out fully and state your bias.
I might personally find sexism annoying, offensive, and generally detrimental, but I am willing to give a person points for genuinely standing by their beliefs, despite their being unpopular and in my opinion wrong. I do not see such a stand being taken here though, I see what appears to be someone espousing an offensive and discriminatory belief clothed in "reasonable discourse" and "but of course _I_ don't think this" language.
Your initial premise that D&D is a "boys" game could have been judged a mistake of some sort, a misunderstanding, or even an honest question that's been muddled by unclear and unconsidered reasoning. Your subsequent posts however appear to demonstrate nothing redeeming and further cast your initial post in a worse light in my opinion.
You may feel free to respond to anything I've said, but in this particular case I will not be replying. I cannot think of anything you might say that would change my perception of what you've said and therefore there's no possibility for meaningful dialogue between us. What I've quoted in my post is the sort of thing that confirms for _people_ (men and women) that participants in the rpg hobby are misogynistic and socially dysfunctional, and further sends the message that "women don't really belong here". In my opinion it's nasty stereotyping and it reinforces those nasty stereotypes that exist, both towards women in general and about rpg hobbyists.
I'm really not mad here.... just disbelieving and disappointed.
Sidenote: Completely unrelated to this topic... you might consider your approach to posting here. This is honestly the first topic of yours that I poked into; I've seen plenty of others started by you, but just from looking at the topic titles and the number, I've had the impression that you were simply shotgunning topics out there. Not really with a desire for genuine discourse, but more to simply inflate your post count and... I dunno, maybe be one of the cool kids that others pay attention to because you've got so many posts that obviously you think alot about this stuff or something.
I might be alone in having come to that conclusion, but on the other hand my experience has been that if 1 person says it, 10 or more are probably thinking it. While I don't anticipate poking into any other threads of yours, I would personally suggest that if you want to establish a good face here, give a think about where you're posting, what you're posting, and why you're posting. You might be perfectly within the rules and you may or may not generate responses, but you'll probably also make it to folks ignore list for reasons other than folks being offended by you.
I'm not a mod, so I am not trying to tell you what to do and have no right to tell you what to do. My suggestion is based strictly on being a forum reader that has seen a whole mess of posts from you and finally clicked on one. Forums are kinda funny communities and sometimes the reputation a poster develops/acquires isn't based on _what_ their opinions are but how they convey them.
Traditional/historical "roles" (which were by no means universal across humanity) has nothing to do with a game created 30 years ago, in terms of whether or not it's a "boys" game.
Further, there's plenty of women that play D&D. They may not be the _majority_ but they're certainly present. WotC did a survey back in 2000; while some folks might argue about certain aspects of it, it's one of the few solid bits of research we have regarding the hobby. You can find a link here:
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0 -- Wizards of the Coast
Notice conclusion 2:
This was a bit over a decade ago; D&D was barely staggering along, the tabletop RPG market was stagnant as there wasn't the option of the internet for 3rd party publishing, and 3.x hadn't even hit the scene. Additionally, there were already women _in_ the rpg industry in various capacities. The gal that ran TSR into the ground, Liz Danforth (Liz Danforth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia also did significant work on Tunnels & Trolls 5th ed) Margaret Weiss (Margaret Weis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you know...Dragonlance?) P.D. Breeding-Black (almost single-handedly responsible for the look of Talislanta), Maryann Siembieda (Kevin Siembieda's now ex-wife who was quite involved in Palladium games), Jennifer Schoonover (Chaos University for Gurps and a consistent Editor for various RPG books over the years) ... the list keeps going on.
And there's a whole other crop of women out there designing really slick games and self-publishing 'em, as well as having them show up in brick-n-mortar stores. Jenna Moran (Nobilis, Exalted, and more), Elizabeth Shoemaker (Blowback among others), Jenni Dowsett (The Silver Kiss of the Magical Twilight of the Full Moon)... it's really not hard to find.
There's an interesting interview that was done here:
The 20 Sided Women Project: Interview with Jennifer Schoonover: Woman in the Gaming Industry
It's a bit of a tightrope she walks, trying to explain the male/female thing in rpgs and trying to make it _not_ be simply a "male" vs "female" thing.
Claiming that D&D is a "boys" game, is like claiming that housework is a "woman's job". The activities are not gender-biased because of some inherent male/female -ness. Actually giving birth? Right now, yeah that's a woman's activity. There really isn't a whole lot to legitimately slap a gender label on.
First... no kidding, you're "not a feminist".
Second... let me get this straight... you're actually claiming that: Courage, Discipline, Integrity, Loyalty, and Respect for others are _MANLY_ virtues?!?!? [Read that as being flabbergasted and dumbfounded; anger is completely pointless in the face of such a claim].
Boy howdy, I can tell you I know a fair number of women that would cheerfully line-up, just to give you a crack alongside the head. And I don't mean some bitch-slap either, I mean a full on right-cross, left hook sorta deal. You've pretty much managed to insult half the planet there. There's also a bit of a nasty implication about those "manly virtues" being tied to going to war; an uncharitable person might see not just a slam against women in general, but a slam against anyone that isn't militarily inclined too.
Sidenote: D&D? Not really "about going to war". The rules explicitly reward killing things and taking their stuff. Sometimes it involves war, frequently it involves genocide, but there's also plenty of D&D games that aren't about either, despite the default nature of the game giving XP for killing something.
I am stunned. Really and truly stunned. On the one hand, I'd like to thank you for attempting to behave in a slightly modern fashion by claiming: "(I'm not of course saying that women shouldn't have careers or anything like that.)" On the other hand, it's a claim I personally find difficult to credit though and it causes me to think you don't _actually_ thing women should have careers, you're just reluctant to come out fully and state your bias.
I might personally find sexism annoying, offensive, and generally detrimental, but I am willing to give a person points for genuinely standing by their beliefs, despite their being unpopular and in my opinion wrong. I do not see such a stand being taken here though, I see what appears to be someone espousing an offensive and discriminatory belief clothed in "reasonable discourse" and "but of course _I_ don't think this" language.
Your initial premise that D&D is a "boys" game could have been judged a mistake of some sort, a misunderstanding, or even an honest question that's been muddled by unclear and unconsidered reasoning. Your subsequent posts however appear to demonstrate nothing redeeming and further cast your initial post in a worse light in my opinion.
You may feel free to respond to anything I've said, but in this particular case I will not be replying. I cannot think of anything you might say that would change my perception of what you've said and therefore there's no possibility for meaningful dialogue between us. What I've quoted in my post is the sort of thing that confirms for _people_ (men and women) that participants in the rpg hobby are misogynistic and socially dysfunctional, and further sends the message that "women don't really belong here". In my opinion it's nasty stereotyping and it reinforces those nasty stereotypes that exist, both towards women in general and about rpg hobbyists.
I'm really not mad here.... just disbelieving and disappointed.
Sidenote: Completely unrelated to this topic... you might consider your approach to posting here. This is honestly the first topic of yours that I poked into; I've seen plenty of others started by you, but just from looking at the topic titles and the number, I've had the impression that you were simply shotgunning topics out there. Not really with a desire for genuine discourse, but more to simply inflate your post count and... I dunno, maybe be one of the cool kids that others pay attention to because you've got so many posts that obviously you think alot about this stuff or something.
I might be alone in having come to that conclusion, but on the other hand my experience has been that if 1 person says it, 10 or more are probably thinking it. While I don't anticipate poking into any other threads of yours, I would personally suggest that if you want to establish a good face here, give a think about where you're posting, what you're posting, and why you're posting. You might be perfectly within the rules and you may or may not generate responses, but you'll probably also make it to folks ignore list for reasons other than folks being offended by you.
I'm not a mod, so I am not trying to tell you what to do and have no right to tell you what to do. My suggestion is based strictly on being a forum reader that has seen a whole mess of posts from you and finally clicked on one. Forums are kinda funny communities and sometimes the reputation a poster develops/acquires isn't based on _what_ their opinions are but how they convey them.
akbearfoot
First Post
He's not a sexist...he has a female friend....his mother. lol
Ok seriously though. D&D is not a boys game. That list of 'manly' virtues is hilarious. As has already been pointed out, I think you just insulted most of the planet.
I find it extra funny given my own demographic. Being an out gay male, one of the more common stereotypes I encounter is the whole 'but you're masculine, how can u be gay!?' meme. Pretty much exactly in the same ballpark as this OP.
And remember kids...you can always trust a car salesman that says "Trust me."
Ok seriously though. D&D is not a boys game. That list of 'manly' virtues is hilarious. As has already been pointed out, I think you just insulted most of the planet.
I find it extra funny given my own demographic. Being an out gay male, one of the more common stereotypes I encounter is the whole 'but you're masculine, how can u be gay!?' meme. Pretty much exactly in the same ballpark as this OP.
And remember kids...you can always trust a car salesman that says "Trust me."
I think that this is in the wrong forum, and ragingly sexist. The very idea that there are "virtues" that are somehow more appropriate to men than women can (and quite rightfully) offend any woman visiting these boards. Integrity, loyalty, courage, committment, and all the rest - these are virtues for humans, not just for one gender or another.
Thread closed.
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