D&D needs to grow up

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Wasn't Eberron supposed to be a grim n' grittier version of D&D? We are know how well that worked out, lol!

 

[Mallus]

Love. Hate. Good. Evil. Courage. Honor. Truth."

You know, for a change of pace, I'd like to play in a D&D campaign about those things.

A few observations:

1) Inappropriate for children does not imply adult or mature, cf. popular culture.

2) Moorcock and Martin, despite what one thinks of their work, are doing very different things when writing fantasy.

3) Whatever else players might bring to D&D, they are always additions to a core comprised of killing things, taking their stuff, and thus getting better at killing things and taking their stuff. Which means the core of D&D is power fantasy. Since it involves elves, dragons, and general make-believe, this power fantasy is usually characterized as adolescent.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Here! Here!

I agree in theory with the OP 110% but it cannot happen. D&D is marketed to kids, written for kids, and presented in an adolescent manner for one reason.....$$$$$

This is not a slight against it, it is a reality. If core WoTC D&D did otherwise it would die. D&D as written, quality mature themed settings notwithstanding, is fantasy superheroes and a mishmash of pop-fantasy odds and ends that isn't IMO meant to be taken serious...not that you can't play it as a more adult game, many including myself certianly do.

I love grown-up games and would only DM an immature game if I were DMing for my 10yr old son and his friends. Lighthearted, bloody, cinematic, nonsensical adventures in nonsensical holes in the ground is how I learned the game and that kind of classic D&Dness is perfectly suited to kids and tweens...ie those that first pick up the game.

The adult slack has to be picked up, not be the core game, but by innovative settings that gear the game to older (18+yr old) gamers where the types of adventures and situations are themed to speak to folks who have matured enough to deal with mature themes.

In 3.5e Midnight and Scarred Lands come to mind as settings that didn't shrink from creating a believable environment for mature gamers who can handle the reality of the evil their characters are up against or the consequences of war, slavery, decadence, violence, and absolute evil in the sense of demons, devils and such creatures.

IMO D&D is written as a G.I. Joe cartoon...evil has no real consequences and the superhero like good-guys always prevail in the end....blah, blah, blah. I prefer my games to be like Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan where the threat is real, the challenges can be extreme but when you get through it you feel like heroes...because you are.

The setting I am writing up is definately adult, not unrelentingly dark and foreboding, but mature. Its going to be up to setting designers to fill in the adult gaps in what is basically, as written, a kids game.


Wyrmshadows

 

[jensun]

Wasn't Eberron supposed to be a grim n' grittier version of D&D?

No, it was billed as a Pulp setting which is something quite different and has little or nothing to do with grim n'gritty.

 

[Tervin]

As many others, I think folks often confuse "adult" with "mature". Nipples are adult, deep emotion is mature. Blood and gore are adult, ethical complexity is mature. Alcohol is adult, drinking responsibly is mature. You can have adult themes in either a mature or an immature fashion. For example, the Gor books are adult, but not mature.

So, it seems to me that the D&D game rules (3rd or 4th) are quite open to mature play - it is far more a matter of setting and role play style than of rules.

Great post. I personally don't want my D&D to be adult, but I try to make it mature from time to time.

I do think that there is a lack of mature material for D&D. Heroic fantasy doesn't need to run away from strong emotion and ethical dilemmas, but there was a long time since I saw a commercial setting or adventure for D&D that really made me feel or think about anything.

 

[Filcher]

Ah, I had such high hopes as I was reading this. I have this pet theory, see, that D&D needs to grow up the way science fiction did in the middle part of the 20th century, when people like Heinlein, Asimov, and Bradbury brought scifi out of the "literary ghetto" and into the realm of world-class letters. But I see that's not what you meant, so, alas, enough of that for now.

On topic, I think that D&D 4e did what 2e did. Namely, step back from some topics that some peopleobject to, including assassins, devils, and wandering prostitute tables. Personally, I prefer the 1e and 3e approach. But 4e is not as overboard as 2e in this regard, and the points of light default setting does do something to counter the other changes in this regard.

I dunno. There is a core race of devil-spawn. That would gone over in the mid-to-late 80s.

 

[Filcher]

Count me among those that do not equate "grim and gritty" with adult.

Ditto. If I want a grim and realistic campaign, I'll strip D&D of all magic, have all the PCs die before they are 30, and be sure to make certain all my PCs roll to survive child birth, the plague, scarlet fever, starvation ....

 

[The Little Raven]

On topic, I think that D&D 4e did what 2e did. Namely, step back from some topics that some peopleobject to, including assassins, devils, and wandering prostitute tables.

They took out Assassins? Man, that Shadow Assassin paragon path must be an illusion.

They took out Devils? Man, that 7-page devil entry in the MM, along with the devil-tainted core race of Tieflings must be an illusion.

Wandering Prostitute table? Ummm... how exactly is a table to determine whether she's a "frisky trollop" or a "homely slattern" necessary? What exactly is mature about something like that?

 

[korjik]

Kids buy more games.

D&D needs to appeal to kids.

Part of appealing to kids is being harmless enough to pass under the Parent's Radar.

Trendhopping is what D&D does best.

I wonder, is this really true? Does anyone know if there is a poll around here about the age of players? I will be 40 in 387 days, and my players average about 32 now. That may just mean that I am out of touch, but I seem to remember a pretty even spread of age when I was selling the stuff back in the 90s

I wonder wether it isnt an assumption that the average player is a teen. That since everyone knows it is true, it must be true.

On the question of wether D&D sould be more adult, I look at what real life was like, and I see no reason to shelter teens from that sort of thing. Look at how the minotaur came about greek myth.

I guess I see some hypocrisy in a game based around killing things in very nasty ways, then stealing their stuff, but a naked breast is unacceptable.

But like I said, I am pushing 40. I prolly see thing quite a bit different.

 

[Bialaska]

D&D is the flagship amongst the roleplaying games, it's the game that carries the torch to the masses and when the unenlightened talk about roleplaying, it's almost automatically D&D that they think of.

Due to this status, then D&D must remain a game which is not offending to children. The moment the D&D book is filled with images of naked devils doing unmentionable things, blood and gore, the roleplaying genre will once again be seen as devil-worshippers, insane psychopats, mass murderers, etc. For those who remember how the world was for us roleplayers 20-30 years ago should not have trouble remembering what I'm talking about.

As the poster-child for roleplaying games to the common masses, it must per default be suitable for minors to read and play. Yet D&D also has a huge flexibility and if you want blood, gore, maturity and so on in your game, it's simply a matter of you adding it yourself.

Or if you want rules specifically made for it, because you for some reason cannot adapt D&D, then there are hundreds of systems and campaigns settings out there that you may find more suitable.