D&D 5E D&D next ... fate or doom ?

[theuglyamerican]

After 5th Edition is released, we either have a new good game on the market, or the 800 pound gorilla drops out of the race and leaves the field for other companies to bring innovation.
Either way, it's looking good for the future.

Except it's not. At all. The RPG hobby as a whole needs D&D to succeed. We -- as roleplayers -- need new people to come into the hobby from outside, because otherwise the hobby dies. I don't know about you, but when I tell someone outside the hobby that I'm a roleplayer, I get a dead-fish, glassy-eyed stare -- until I say, "You know, D&D?" and then there's recognition. To people outside the hobby, D&D IS roleplaying. It's the gateway to the hobby for almost everyone who comes in, even if they quickly move on to other things. It's the face of the hobby and its flagship, its origin and its lingua franca. Almost by definition, it isn't just alone at the apex of the hobby, it is the apex of the hobby.

The simple fact is that if D&D dies, nothing will be able to take its place. There's no other 800-lb gorilla waiting in the wings.

I'm a Pathfinder player, and the odds of D&D (and more specifically WotC, which I don't exactly respect or admire) recovering me as a customer were always long. But I also recognize the fact that, for the health of Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu and Hero and all the other games I love, D&D must not just survive, it must thrive. Cook leaving deals what looks like a critical blow. Maybe it's lethal, maybe it's not. Hell, maybe 5E never had a chance to begin with. All I know is that I'm a sad gamer these days.

 

[Serendipity]

As an aside, I'll also point out that Pepsi just released a soda called Pepsi Next. And exactly no one cares what the soda's name is. It's a soda and if they try it and they like it they'll keep drinking it.

I think you perhaps took my post a bit more seriously than it was meant. Though I was unaware that Pepsi next was still being consumed/produced.
Make no mistake however, that I think D&D Next is a dumb name, and screams volumes at me at having been produced by the stellar engineering that is the WotC marketing department.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Except it's not. At all. The RPG hobby as a whole needs D&D to succeed. We -- as roleplayers -- need new people to come into the hobby from outside, because otherwise the hobby dies. I don't know about you, but when I tell someone outside the hobby that I'm a roleplayer, I get a dead-fish, glassy-eyed stare -- until I say, "You know, D&D?" and then there's recognition. To people outside the hobby, D&D IS roleplaying. It's the gateway to the hobby for almost everyone who comes in, even if they quickly move on to other things. It's the face of the hobby and its flagship, its origin and its lingua franca. Almost by definition, it isn't just alone at the apex of the hobby, it is the apex of the hobby.

The simple fact is that if D&D dies, nothing will be able to take its place. There's no other 800-lb gorilla waiting in the wings.

Even if D&D Next falls flat and WOTC shelves the rpg the D&D game isn't going anywhere. New gamers get into the hobby by being introduced by other gamers and current gamers teach thier children what they already know and enjoy playing.

Thanks to the OGL and the internet, D&D will live with or without active support from a major company. If WOTC announces that the D&D tabletop game is to be mothballed tomorrow and they are going to focus on other products for the D&D brand would that mean you suddenly couldn't play or enjoy your game anymore?

Only one thing will kill D&D as a currently supported product and that is corporate greed. Even that won't stop those that still enjoy playing from continuing and teaching others who wish to learn.

 

[theuglyamerican]

Even if D&D Next falls flat and WOTC shelves the rpg the D&D game isn't going anywhere. New gamers get into the hobby by being introduced by other gamers and current gamers teach thier children what they already know and enjoy playing.

Thanks to the OGL and the internet, D&D will live with or without active support from a major company. If WOTC announces that the D&D tabletop game is to be mothballed tomorrow and they are going to focus on other products for the D&D brand would that mean you suddenly couldn't play or enjoy your game anymore?

Only one thing will kill D&D as a currently supported product and that is corporate greed. Even that won't stop those that still enjoy playing from continuing and teaching others who wish to learn.

I have to disagree with you on this. D&D isn't a game (or at least it's not solely a game), it's a brand. I'm not telling you anything you don't know when I point out that OGL games can't use the D&D brand, or even mention it. Even the biggest of the competitors (Pathfinder) doesn't get the shelf space at Barnes & Noble, Wal-Mart, Target, whatever, that D&D does despite currently outselling D&D through other channels. If the D&D brand is mothballed, I do not take it as a given that other RPGs will be given the vacated shelf space, and even if they are, they aren't D&D. Not every new gamer is either spawned by another gamer or introduced to the game by other gamers. I'd be surprised if even a majority were.

A 12-ear-old kid who's heard about D&D and goes to Wal-Mart looking for it, and doesn't find it, but instead finds all this "Pathfinder" stuff -- what's this kid going to do? D&D is a presence that other games aren't and never will be, and it has influence beyond what it puts on the shelf.

And yes, I can keep playing my Pathfinder or CoC or whatever, but I'm not the issue. The hobby needs the thing called D&D to be front and center or new people will not come at anything like the rate the hobby needs to sustain the production of new, quality material across a broad range of games.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Except it's not. At all. The RPG hobby as a whole needs D&D to succeed. We -- as roleplayers -- need new people to come into the hobby from outside, because otherwise the hobby dies. I don't know about you, but when I tell someone outside the hobby that I'm a roleplayer, I get a dead-fish, glassy-eyed stare -- until I say, "You know, D&D?" and then there's recognition. To people outside the hobby, D&D IS roleplaying. It's the gateway to the hobby for almost everyone who comes in, even if they quickly move on to other things. It's the face of the hobby and its flagship, its origin and its lingua franca. Almost by definition, it isn't just alone at the apex of the hobby, it is the apex of the hobby.

The simple fact is that if D&D dies, nothing will be able to take its place. There's no other 800-lb gorilla waiting in the wings.

I'm sure WotC marketing loves seeing this idea repeated on forums, but things have changed quite a bit, since Mr. Jackson wrote that famous line about the health of the hobby being tied to D&D.

Gamers will introduce new players, just as they always have, whether or not they call the game D&D, Pathfinder, Labyrinth Lord, or whatever.

It can be argued that PF has already taken D&D's place. I feel fairly certain that if WotC closed up shop tomorrow, Paizo would manage to figure out how to capitalize on that.

The health of the hobby doesn't depend upon the Industry. It's in our hands. The hobbyists. And thanks to the OGL, we have everything we need, should WotC, or Paizo, drop the ball.

 

[ExploderWizard]

And yes, I can keep playing my Pathfinder or CoC or whatever, but I'm not the issue. The hobby needs the thing called D&D to be front and center or new people will not come at anything like the rate the hobby needs to sustain the production of new, quality material across a broad range of games.

The industry needs this a lot more than the hobby and I think you are overestimating the number of new gamers spawned from blind purchases rather than being introduced by other gamers.

The panicked feeling that the hobby will suddenly die unless people purchase mass amounts of product from a large company comes from the industry not hobbyists. If products people want are made then they will buy them.

I really don't get your reasoning. Are you saying that if D&D Next is released and is considered a turd by 80% of the player base then we should buy it anyway just to keep D&D on the shelves? All that buying crap begets is more crap. Purchase what you like and let the market decide what survives and what gets canned.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Not every new gamer is either spawned by another gamer or introduced to the game by other gamers. I'd be surprised if even a majority were.

Unless things have changed drastically, in the past few years, being introduced by other gamers has always been the primary entry into rpg's.

A 12-ear-old kid who's heard about D&D and goes to Wal-Mart looking for it, and doesn't find it, but instead finds all this "Pathfinder" stuff -- what's this kid going to do? D&D is a presence that other games aren't and never will be, and it has influence beyond what it puts on the shelf.

He wouldn't hear about D&D. He'll hear about Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, or whatever else his contemporaries are playing. If they're playing some version of D&D, they'll no doubt tell him to pick up PF or another clone.

And yes, I can keep playing my Pathfinder or CoC or whatever, but I'm not the issue. The hobby needs the thing called D&D to be front and center or new people will not come at anything like the rate the hobby needs to sustain the production of new, quality material across a broad range of games.

Sure they will. The hobbyists will make new stuff for the sheer love of the game. Case in point: The OSR.

Besides, any lonely newb interested in this RPG stuff will go online, quickly find places like EnWorld and have enough names thrown out in whatever "edition war" thread is current, that he'll find plenty of avenues to investigate.

 

[Tallifer]

what are your thoughts ? i share mine on my video blog...

As far as I can tell from watching your video, you hoped that Wizards of the Coast with Monte Cook would restore much of the 3.5/Pathfinder rules system. I can see why you would be disappointed, because I doubt that the Fifth Edition was ever going to be 3.95 (if Pathfinder is 3.5). It looks like OD&D and AD&D are more likely to be emulated.

At any rate, Pathfinder is thriving, so I have no need for another Pathfinder clone. I already play in two Pathfinder campaigns, and I would not even playtest the Fifth Edition if it is only that. Pathfinder (and their OGL) offers so much support for its game that nothing else is necessary.

(I am more worried that the Fourth Edition's goodness will not be carried forward. Essentials have already muddied that spring of living water.)

 

[n00bdragon]

Totally agree with the OP that Cooks sudden departure bodes VERY ill for 5e. I'm glad to see him off the project as I think he's a hack but there's no denying that from a project management standpoint having one of your lead designers ragequit the team is just about the worst thing that can happen.

 

[Yora]

I agree in so far that making staff changes at such a high level in the middle of development is a risk. But also, I think that hiring Monte Cook in the first place was a mistake. If you like his approach to game design or not, well that's your personal preference in RPGs. But even if a game created under his direction becomes hugely popular, I think that it won't be a game that I will enjoy. While the books I've seen from Meals, Cordell, Schwalb, and Thompson make them pretty much appears as a dream-team of writers to me.
I think the pros and cons cancel each other out.