D&D 5E D&D Next will succeed or die on the basis of its digital apps.

[Obryn]

Yeah, the simple-style classes were badly needed in 4e. They also showed that 4e is rather less rigid, as far as class design goes, as many thought. I would not have been surprised to see even further experimentation as time went on.

Anyway, if you want to argue that character generators are rather useless in RC and AD&D, no argument from me!

-O

 

[Libramarian]

I think a character generator is really useful for AD&D actually. It's nice to roll up a character with one click and have it say which races and classes you qualify for, instead of doing the whole thing where a player says "hmm, maybe a Ranger?" and then looks it up in the book and gets disappointed that they don't qualify for it, and so on.

Basic/RC is the only edition where I don't think a chargen program would be useful at all.

 

[Obryn]

I think a character generator is really useful for AD&D actually. It's nice to roll up a character with one click and have it say which races and classes you qualify for, instead of doing the whole thing where a player says "hmm, maybe a Ranger?" and then looks it up in the book and gets disappointed that they don't qualify for it, and so on.

Basic/RC is the only edition where I don't think a chargen program would be useful at all.

Yeah, I can see that.

Also, for casters, getting spell printouts would be nice, even in RC.

-O

 

[Dannager]

Everybody typing away at their respective laptops/pads certainly take away from the game experience for me.

I don't quite get this. What "typing away" do you imagine taking place? There'd likely be very little typing going on - probably only to take the occasional note, just as you would on paper (and even that would be sped up, given the massive boost in speed while typing over speed while writing). Most of the interaction with a solid app would be flipping between portions of the character sheet or adjusting hit point totals. This is exactly what you'd get from an actual character sheet, just, y'know, on a tablet or what-have-you. The improvements over paper and pencil would be in areas like: avoiding paper waste, handling basic character math for you, reliably tracking power use, pop-up glossary or rules text boxes, setting reminders for beginning-of-turn or end-of-turn events, sending/receiving messages discreetly, allowing players to "queue up" their actions while waiting for their turn, automating the process of adding looted equipment to a character's stats, allowing the DM to "push" handouts, maps, NPC portraits, and other documents to players'd devices, etc. And this is just from the players' side of the table.

All of the things that I listed speed up the game's play, and none of them involve any more head-in-the-books action than you would see with a table full of print sourcebooks and paper character sheets.

That's what I'm talking about when I point to the promise of well-designed digital tools. They absolutely do have a place at your average D&D table - even some of the tables whose DMs haven't embraced the idea. The apps just haven't been developed yet.

Digital tools would be nothing more then bells and whistles

We're talking about a tabletop game. Everything is bells and whistles. It's a matter of deciding which bells and whistles move you closer to your ideal sort of game. I think that, for most people, well-designed digital tools will improve their game experience rather than detract from it.

- not needed in the least bit for any rpg to be successful unless it was so complicated you had to use apps.

Assuming that the RPG market operates like any other market, it will be necessary to have solid digital apps if enough RPG products make use of them, because consumers will - all else held equal - show preference for the RPGs with dedicated digital support. And this is only going to become more true as time goes on.

Again: Will you need digital tools to play? No, probably not. At least, not for a couple generations (i.e., not until digital platforms are so ubiquitous that nothing significant is lost by removing print from the equation). But will we see a point where you'd be crazy not to want to use those digital tools in order to improve your game experience? I'd bet money on it.

 

[Dannager]

I don't think iwarrior-poet was saying that WotC should do this themselves. I agree that WotC's track record with digital products they personally produce is absolutely abysmal. They should, most assuredly, contract this out.

As has been pointed out, WotC has used this strategy in the past, and it hasn't gone well. IIRC, not only was e-tools developed out-of-house, but so was the original VTT project (the one that rendered the game table in 3D). There may be other components that were developed out-of-house that I'm not aware of as well.

In fact, the digital tools that have survived were all (and, again, correct me if I'm wrong) developed by WotC's own digital team. So, as a matter of fact, history would suggest that they're better off using their own team rather than contracting their digital tools out. I'm not sure how reliable history is as a guide, in this case, but there you go.

 

[delericho]

I don't quite get this. What "typing away" do you imagine taking place?

For a long time, I had a very similar objection to laptops at the table, because I was reasonably sure they would serve as a distraction. In particular, I was concerned it might lead to players surfing the net/accessing Facebook, or what-have-you during the game.

Then I actually tried it (as I noted up-thread), and found that I indeed didn't like it... but not for those reasons. The problem was actually the presence of the screens, which created barriers between the various people at the table. (Indeed, I don't even use, or like, GM-screens for the same reason.)

However, as I also noted up-thread, I think we're actually already beyond that being a problem. Because my current campaign includes a player who makes fairly extensive use of an iPad and/or iPhone at the table, and the mere fact that that lies flat when not in use eliminates that problem.

The improvements over paper and pencil would be in areas like: avoiding paper waste, handling basic character math for you, reliably tracking power use, pop-up glossary or rules text boxes, setting reminders for beginning-of-turn or end-of-turn events, sending/receiving messages discreetly, allowing players to "queue up" their actions while waiting for their turn, automating the process of adding looted equipment to a character's stats, allowing the DM to "push" handouts, maps, NPC portraits, and other documents to players'd devices, etc. And this is just from the players' side of the table.

Yep. All of these are good.

Actually, the app I'd really like is an in-game character manager - basically an electronic character sheet that allows easy updating with the effects of buff spells (or,worst of all dispel magic) as they are cast.

However, I think the odds of seeing that for 3.5e, never mind my own house-ruled 3.5e, is pretty minimal.

As has been pointed out, WotC has used this strategy in the past, and it hasn't gone well. IIRC, not only was e-tools developed out-of-house, but so was the original VTT project (the one that rendered the game table in 3D). There may be other components that were developed out-of-house that I'm not aware of as well.

In fact, the digital tools that have survived were all (and, again, correct me if I'm wrong) developed by WotC's own digital team. So, as a matter of fact, history would suggest that they're better off using their own team rather than contracting their digital tools out. I'm not sure how reliable history is as a guide, in this case, but there you go.

I tend to agree - they seem to have had better results by keeping it in-house. However, I do think they might benefit from looking at those tools that the community has made, and if a good solution is available out there somewhere (VTT software, for example), they could do worse than to buy it, rebadge it, and adopt it as their own solution. On a case-by-case basis, at least.

 

[Obryn]

If there is a character builder of sorts (and I hope there is) one of the best things WotC could do, imo, is allow 3rd parties to create data sets for it with relative ease. I know I'd appreciate it, and it would help the CB become less of a wall to publishers.

-O

 

[Zaukrie]

I agree with the general premise, they need good tools to help new players and SMs especially. I still think beginner box should have cheap calculator type devices that manage characters to level 5 or so. They are almost free to make. They really need the subscription model to male money in a way corporate will like.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Then I actually tried it (as I noted up-thread), and found that I indeed didn't like it... but not for those reasons. The problem was actually the presence of the screens, which created barriers between the various people at the table. (Indeed, I don't even use, or like, GM-screens for the same reason.)

However, as I also noted up-thread, I think we're actually already beyond that being a problem. Because my current campaign includes a player who makes fairly extensive use of an iPad and/or iPhone at the table, and the mere fact that that lies flat when not in use eliminates that problem.

I have more or less the same experience regarding tablets and I would allow them at my table.
I have some negative experience with players bringing their laptops, partially because it was distracting them (browsing while playing). I banned them without much protest at all. If they are bored, I will just have to make the game go a bit faster.

 

[bouncyhead]

Actually, the app I'd really like is an in-game character manager - basically an electronic character sheet that allows easy updating with the effects of buff spells (or,worst of all dispel magic) as they are cast.

However, I think the odds of seeing that for 3.5e, never mind my own house-ruled 3.5e, is pretty minimal.

I think the Herolab character sheet/manager for iPad is in for app store approval in March. Initially for Pathfinder but I think the plan is to roll out to other currently supported systems (e.g. d20, M&M etc.). It will work as a client to the main Herolab software - that is you will have to create characters on a PC but will then be able to manage them through an interactive sheet on the iPad - spells, mods, conditions, resource tracking, equipment et al. There's a load of info on the Lone Wolf site somewhere, inc. screenshots.

There's also something called CharacterFolio in the app store that I've tried and quite like. None of the character building tools of Herolab or PCGen, but a fully functional e-sheet for 3.5 with resource tracking, conditions, rules pop-ups and the like. Pretty good.

I'm with you on the screen-as-barrier thing and hopefully tablets will nullify. FWIW, I have found that good character-management tools help improve immersion in my games. They get noses out of books and concentrate players on the now, and what options are available. But I'm sure all tables are different.