• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Pathfinder 1E D&D or Pathfinder?

Swiftbrook

First Post
At this years Ennies, Paizo (Pathfinder) won every category for which they were entered. They beat WotC head-to-head in "Best Monster/Adversary", "Best Setting", and most improtantly "Fans’ Choice, Best Publisher".

Last year (2010) Paizo also won every category for which they were entered!

At GenCon, Pathfinder Society ran about 40+ full tables every slot. This is up from about 30 tables per slot last year. They ran 51 tables (325+ people) at their Friday night special.

Paizo and Pathfinder must be doing something right!

-Swiftbrook
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DM Howard

Explorer
Different strokes for different folks. As others have said i almost always do a home brew setting. So it really comes down to what system I want to deal with. 4E is easier for me as a DM, I always seem to TPK in the first encounter whenever I run Pathfinder anymore.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
You may find PoL's World-Axis cosmology nonsensical, but personally I find The Great Wheel to be uber-camp; not bad at all, just ridiculous. My point is that "nonsense" is pretty subjective--to me, the World-Axis cosmology looks more like a believable real-world cosmology than does The Great Wheel, although YMMV.
Yeah, I don't play 4E -- I gave my three corebooks to the library a few months ago, in fact -- but I think there's a lot to admire in the cosmology, although I can't speak to how WotC uses it. (I'm not sure I like the idea of low level planar adventures by default, but that seems independent of the cosmology.)

But then, I'm a big believer in "only the stuff I think is awesome is in this campaign," when I'm in the world-building stage, and a fey plane and the Plane of Shadow were on my list (along with the Plane of Mirrors) when I was pondering a Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell-flavored campaign setting before starting my current one.

In contrast, all I think the Great Wheel has going for it -- which is more than enough for many people -- is its age, and thus the wealth of material that's been developed for it, with Sigil as its capstone.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
I think that there are two very different considerations that are engaged when considering the worthiness of a setting.

Firstly, you have the consideration of the richness and consistency of the setting itself. In a very real sense, the "setting" can be a character in the tale. It has a complex and detailed backstory, and the differences and flavors that the setting imparts to the tale should be almost tangible.

The best examples of these sorts of settings are drawn from fantasy literature and the great "world builders": Tolkien's Middle Earth, Donaldson's The Land, Martin's Westeros, etc.. Each is a detailed and rich setting which brings so much to the table that it is almost a character in the tale itself. I think that many homebrew GMs prefer this sort of verisimilitude that these settings convey to the reader and they aim to reach that level of flavor for their own campaign worlds. Some of them look for the same aspects in published game worlds, too.

But there is a second and, I would argue, overriding design aspect to published game settings: they need to work as a setting for all manners of divergent role-playing game sessions. You would think that this should be glaringly obvious but it seems pretty clear from the posts in this thread so far that... well... maybe it isn't so obvious after all. Because the sorts of rich and distinctive detail that fantasy authors bring to their worlds within their own fiction are so rich -- and so distinctive -- that they don't work for the large majority of RPGs.


Some gamers like high fantasy dungeon crawls. Others like urban fantasy tales as might be inspired by Fritz Leiber's city of Newhon where Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser's adventures took place. Some prefer a more modernized urban fantsay a la China Mieville. Some others prefer a story where court intrigue is the main theme. Others still prefer their tale to be about challenging authority and resisting the Evil Overlord. The list goes on and on and on and the Devil is in those Details.

On and on it goes. There are DOZENS AND DOZENS of aspects to game setting and themes which "best match" the preferred style of a given DM/GM and their players. One size does not and cannot ever fit all. It cannot be done. EVER.

So, recognizing the fact that different styles of games requires different settings, the most successful published game worlds approach the question of setting by using a kitchen sink approach. The game world is NOT a game world, rather, it's 20 or more "game worlds" forced on to one planet with a label and branding thrown on top of it all. These regions each feature different cultural aspects to the setting, but their real purpose is to permit vastly different campaign styles and themes to all be set within the same "world". As long as you don't try and make too many of these regions and settings interact with each other TOO much -- it all mostly works.

Is it realistic? No, it isn't and it's not even close. But the kitchen-sink approach is the best commercial context to present to tens of thousands of GMs, each of whom have very different campaign goals and styles. In order to do that, you need details -- but not too much detail. You need a story or metaplot -- but not too much story or metaplot which crowds out and overwhelms the story the GM and the players want to tell in their own games.

When you add official fiction set within that game world into that product mix, inevitably, it adds detail and richness -- while at the same time that detail and metaplot crowds out and forestalls other possibilities. You cannot have the good aspect of that detail without adding in the harmful aspect of that detail, too.

We've seen all kinds of these examples in the past. Krynn was created to tell a very specific story for the Dragonlance novels. The more that was written about it, the less tractable the setting became until metaplot overwhelmed the capacity of the setting to permit GMs to tell their stories there.

The Forgotten Realms suffered and ultimately collapsed under the same weight of fiction and modules set within it. While Bob Savatore's novels sold extremely well over time, that success began to taint and overwhelm the flavor in the whole of the game world, too. The Forgotten Realms, in many ways, became a victim of its own success. I would argue that all successful game worlds experience this same problem.

Paizo's Golarion, which is another incarnation of the Forgotten Realms "multi-region, multi-kingdom design" (the Kitchen Sink Approach) to a world setting has not collapsed under the weight of the burgeoning product line (yet). Golarion may be only five years old, but there have been a staggering number of modules written about the world already. The problem of "which Adventure Path(s) have already happened" question is starting to make that structure groan and shift under its own weight, too. So far, it's still working well. So far, that is.

It seems to me that the single greatest element that can "destroy" the usability of a game world is a very successful line of novels. Once some specific novels become widely read by players and GMs alike, the flavor and canon in that published tale begins to overwhelm the capacity of the game world to be a "blank enough slate" for PCs to be the heroes at the table. Instead, the role of the REAL "hero at the table" is a character in a series of novels that have already been written and in which we all know how the story ends, too. That's BAD for adventure gaming.

All by way of saying, there is no "best" setting because the nature of what makes a setting attractive is highly dependent upon the type of game you want to run -- and we don't necessarily want to run the same games. Even when we do share many of the same objects and goals for our campaigns, our groups may have very different play styles, too.

I will, however, say this: if you want to run one of Paizo's Adventure Paths, the world of Golarion is designed to work extremely well with those APs. Not only that, but it actually works, too.

So far, that is. Add one extremely successful series of novels into that mix and all bets are off.
 
Last edited:

Oryan77

Adventurer
The setting isn't so much what makes the game better looking for me. It's more about how much I enjoy the game (and the group I'm playing with) that makes the setting fun to play in. I could play in a Dark Sun game (which I think is an awesome looking setting) and the game could suck, and then I could play in a PF setting (which is generic) and it could be really cool.

There really isn't much of a difference to me when I play in the PF setting or when I play in the Greyhawk setting. They are both about the same as far as I'm concerned. Even Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance isn't all that much different to me as a player. When you start getting really crazy with a setting (Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Eberron) then I could probably make a distinct comparison. But I can't really compare those with PF since PF only has the one setting which is pretty vanilla.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I've always been a fan of Greyhawk. It's hand down my favorite campaign setting by TSR/WotC (although Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur are contenders). That said, Golarion has a lot going for it as well. I've really been enjoying the setting, particularly with nations like Cheliax bumping around and an interesting cosmology.

So put me down as not necessarily favoring either. Both have (and have had) a lot to offer.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
I prefer the homebrew universe, so both are 100% equal.
Ditto. The only published setting I really give a hoot about is Planescape, but I mostly run home brew.

The Great Wheel seems to have some metaphysical logic behind it. The Material Plane is composed of elements, those elements have planes oriented opposite each other. Same for alignments.
I do like how nicely symmetrical most of the Great Wheel is. But the details have always bugged me. For example, having a bunch of opposing elemental planes is great...but fire isn't the opposite of water darnit! One is a chemical reaction, the other's a liquid compound. Earth and air being opposites makes sense, but those quasi-elemental planes don't! (Negative energy changes earth to dust, which is merely a different type of matter, but completely annihilates air? What?!) I could go on, but you get the idea.

I don't think there's a single outer plane that I don't like, but most of them feel contrived for being forced into the symmetry of the Outer Ring. For example, Arborea's champions of CG are a fairly uniform breed of super-elves, while the champions of CE come in all kinds of random forms. As do the champions of LG, to a lesser degree. It just feels forced. Which is why they're all part of my 4e home brew cosmology, as a sample of the many random planes floating thru the Astral Sea.
 

SpydersWebbing

First Post
I have a pretty heavy sense of nostalgia for 3rd edition, so I like playing Pathfinder, but 4th edition actually feels like it belongs in the fantasy genre to me. That being said if I was to play 3.5 again I'd do the E6 variant.

As far as the basic setting goes I don't like the Great Wheel, and the ideas of the Feywild and the Shadowfell and such are actually closer to mythology, so I stick with 4th for that reason as well.

That and DMing for 4th is a breeze.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Based on what I've actually used, I'd have to go with Greyhawk.

Of course, I enjoy just about all the campaign settings that have been put out - Athas, Cerilia, The Isles of Io, Jakandor, The Known World, Krynn, Oerth, Toril, and all the others.

So, clearly 2E wins. ;)
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Not in all cases, but most it seems, to me, that settings are independant of systems. Unless discussing a system like Dark Sun, which has (or had in 2e a least) a heavy emphasis on psionics, most fantasy settings do not require an specific edition to run it. The settings details are generally setting dependant and not system dependant.

I prefer homebrews almost exclusively, but would have no problem running FR, Ravenloft, or any published setting with whatever system rules I'm running at the time. For now that would be PF.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top