D&D PrCs in d20 Past -- Unbalanced?

[LandWalker]

Background: I'm considering running a game with a setting very loosely inspired by the factions of Warhammer. The rules offered by the DMG for gunpowder weapons are dismal, and for this reason (among several others) I am choosing the run the game using the d20 Modern / d20 Past system and rules.

Because of the rather large technological variability between cultures in the Warhammer universe, however, while some factions that have an advancement comparable to, say, the early Renaissance would fit rather smoothly into d20 Past (for example, the Empire or, to a lesser extent, the Dwarves), other factions remain in the Middle Ages (such as Bretonnia or the various Elven armies).

For this reason, I have been toying with the idea of integrating D&D prestige classes into the game due to their applicability to some of the possible environments. Since d20 Modern spellcasters top off at level 5 spells, PrCs (like the Divine Crusader) that have independent spell progressions up to level 9 are obviously out. However, classes with dependent spell progressions (such as the Warpriest or the Bladesinger) and classes without spells at all (such as the Cavalier or Dwarven Defender) should, I think, be able to be incorporated into the game without causing any serious balance issues. Unfortunately, my sense of balance sucks, so I feel like I should bounce the idea off other people (who are, hopefully, familiar enough with the d20 Modern/Past base/advanced/prestige class arrangement to understand the situation) and see if my plan holds any water.

Thoughts?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

DnD PrCs run the gamut from sucky to broken - without posting the PrCs you're interested in, it's difficult to provide assistance.

 

[Stormborn]

Although you probablly will have to judge on a case by case basis as a general rule I would say that if the PrC gives no supernatural or magical abilities (FX) then they would be appropriate for d20 Past. Some with FX can be allowed. I was going through the ones in the SRD and actually think a lot of them would be OK, even with FX, when the spell casting builds on levels in a previous class, although given the limited nature of magic in the d20 M worlds they probablly aren't going to be useful for that many levels. Of course you woudl have to change the skills, feat prereqs, and grant Rep and Def bonuses.
Do you have Urban Arcana? I would stick to the AdvClasses and PrC in it for a fantasy magic game.

 

[LandWalker]

DnD PrCs run the gamut from sucky to broken - without posting the PrCs you're interested in, it's difficult to provide assistance.

I thought that might be case, but wanted to try to provide a more general idea of the situation first. The ones I am considering at the moment are:

Acolyte of the Skin (CAr)
Arcane Archer (DMG)
Battlesmith (RoS)
Bladesinger (CW)
Cavalier (CW)
Champion of Corellon Larethian (RoW)
Church Inquisitor (CD)
Dark Hunter (CW)
Darkwood Stalker (CW)
Divine Oracle (CD)
Dread Pirate (CAd)
Dungeon Delver (CAd)
Dwarven Defender (DMG)
Eldritch Knight (DMG)
Evangelist (CD)
Exemplar (CAd)
Exotic Weapon Master (CW)
Eye of Gruumsh (CW)
Fatespinner (CAr)
Geometer (CAr)
Gnome Giant-Slayer (CW)
Halfling Outrider (CW)
Knight Protecter (CW)
Master Thrower (CW)
Nightsong Enforcer (CAd)
Nightsong Infiltrator (CAd)
Order of the Bow Initiate (CW)
Purple Dragon Knight (CW)
Rage Mage (CW)
Ravager (CW)
Runesmith (RoS)
Spellsword (CW)
Spymaster (CAd)
Streetfighter (CAd)
Thief-Acrobat (CAd)
Warpriest (CD)
Wild Plains Outrider (CAd)


Stormborn:

That is essentially the line I tried to take--no PrCs with independent spell-casting or overly powerful abilities. The d20 Past game itself will incorporate (possibly quite heavily) arcane and divine (and maybe psionic, I'm not sure yet) FX, so such classes would not be thematically out of place. I do have Urban Arcana, and I am planning on using some of the Advanced and Prestige Classes in it as well (obviously some of them like the Shadow Jack wouldn't apply to my intended setting, but those that do will certainly be used).

Changing the skills/feats requirements would be taken care of... I hadn't thought about the Defense and Reputation bonuses, though. Still, I think those could be handled fairly well by comparing them to existing Adv./PrCs.

 

[arscott]

Arcane Archer's a bad Idea. Between lower BAB progression for ranged combatants and spellcasting available to advanced classes only, it' tricky to get into in a timely manner. But there's a Web Enhancement for Urban Arcana with a few prestige classes, and it includes the Spellslinger, which is basically a 5-level version of the Arcane Archer that isn't limited to Elves or Bows.

In fact, it's probably a smart idea to make most of the PrCs into 5 level classes. That can have several advantages.

For instance, the Dwarven Defender can use Defensive Stance 5 times a day at level 10. But the Thrasher caps out at 3 uses of his rage knockoff, and the Daredevil has to spend action points to even use hers. You can fix this by cutting the class in half:

Dwarven Defender
Requirements:
Race: Dwarf
Allegiance: Law
BAB: +7
Feats: Dodge, Endurance, Toughness.

HD: d10

Action Points: 7 + 1/2 character Level

Class Skills: Change Craft to Craft(Chemical, Mechanical, Structural), Add Profession.

BAB: Good
Saves: Good Fort and Will, Poor Ref
Defense: As Bodyguard
Reputaion: As Bodyguard

Features:
1st: Defensive Stance 1/day
2nd: Uncanny Dodge X
3rd: Defensive Stance 2/day
4th: Trap Sense +1
5th: Defensive Stance 3/day, DR 3/--

I did make some other changes too: d12 hd and full BAB is pretty strong for a modern character, so reduced the hd to d10. Craft is less ubiquitous and more useful in modern, so I reduced his craft categories to those that would make sense for a dwarf. His defense bonus now has a standard modern progression, and he's got rep and APs. Finally, he gets DR a level earlier, for a nice Capstone ability.

And here are the fusion classes cut down to five levels:

Arcane Trickster
Requirements:
Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 Ranks, Knowledge (Arcane Lore) 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Uncanny Dodge 1.

Hit Die: 1d6

Action Points: 7 + 1/2 character level.

Class Skills: Change Craft to Craft (Chemical, Writing), Add Gamble, Add Investigate, Change Knowledge to Knowledge (Arcane lore, Art, Business, Current Events, Earth and Life Sciences, Physical Sciences, Popular Culture, Streetwise, Technology), Remove Open Lock, Add Read/Write Language, Remove Use Rope.

BAB: Poor
Saves: Poor Fort, Good Ref and Will
Defense: as infiltrator
Reputaion: as infiltrator

Features:
1st: Ranged legerdemain 1/day, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
2nd: Bonus Feat, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
3rd: Ranged legerdemain 2/day, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
4th: Bonus Feat, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
5th: Ranged legerdemain 3/day, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability

Bonus Feat List:
Acrobatic, Alertness, Archaic Weapons Proficiency,Athletic, Attentive, Cautious, Combat Expertise, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Educated, Elusive Target, Low Profile, Meticulous, Mobility, Nimble, Renown, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Studious, Unbalance Opponent.

Sneak Attack doesn't exist in Modern, so I replaced the sneak attack requirement with a 2nd teir fast talent, gave him some theify bonus feats in leiu of sneak attack progression, and collapsed his Ranged legerdemain abilities to fill the holes. I also gave him d6 hit dice, as d4 is unheard of in modern.

Eldrich Knight
Requirements:
Feat: Archaic Weapons Proficiency
Spells: Able to cast 3rd level Arcane Spells
Special: Melee Smash, Any Talent from the Smart Hero Strategy Tree.

HD: d6

Action Points: 7 + 1/2 character level

Class Skills: Change Craft to Craft(), Change Knowledge(Arcana) to Knowledge (Arcane Lore), Change Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) to Knowledge (Civics)

BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Fort, Poor Ref and Will
Defense: As Mage
Reputation: As Mage

Features:
1st: Bonus Feat
2nd: +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
3rd: +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
4th: +1 level arcane spellcasting ability
5th: +1 level arcane spellcasting ability

Bonus Feats:
Blind-Fight, Brawl, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Martial Arts, Combat Throw, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Martial Arts, Double Tap, Elusive Target, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Brawl, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Combat Martial Arts, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Knockout Punch, Mobility, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Streetfighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.

The trick with eldrich knight is the requirements. In D&D, a wizard is forced to take a level of a combat dedicated class to get the martial weapons proficiency. In Modern, the Mage gets Archaic Weapons Proficiency as a bonus feat.

Mystic Theurge
Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (Arcane Lore) 6 ranks, Knowledge (Theology and Philosophy) 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 2nd level divine spells and 2nd level arcane spells.

HD: d6

Action Points 7 + 1/2 character level

Class Skills: Change Knowlege (Arcana) to Knowledge (Arcane Lore), Change Knowledge (Religion) to Knowledge (Theology and Philosophy)

BAB: Poor
Saves: Good Will, Poor Fort and Ref
Defense: As Accolyte
Reputaion: As Accolyte

Features:
1st:, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability, +1 level divine spellcasting ability
2nd:, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability, +1 level divine spellcasting ability
3rd:, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability, +1 level divine spellcasting ability
4th:, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability, +1 level divine spellcasting ability
5th:, +1 level arcane spellcasting ability, +1 level divine spellcasting ability

A Smart3/Mage10/Archmage5 can casts twice as many spells as a 10th level mage, and his caster level is 15. A Smart3/Mage5/Accolyte5/Mystic Theurge5 can basically cast the same number of spells. He's can draw from both spell lists, but he sacrifices +5 caster level to do so.

There are a couple PrCs to avoid though: Blackguard and Dragon Disciple have their niches filled by the Unholy Knight PrC and the d20 Past Sorcerer Adc respectively. Archmage, Heirophant, and Thaumaturgist all rely on a level of magic that simply isn't available in d20 Modern Rules. Assassin is built around sneak attacks and death attacks in addition to having a spellcasting progression that ends up being fairly good by modern standards. Red Wizard is built around school specialization rules that don't exist in modern. And the duelist is built to compensate for lack of class-based defense bonuses, a flaw that doesn't extend to modern rules.