D&D Technology

[Tinker Gnome]

Okay, thanks everyone.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Racism isn't new, just more prevalent.

If you look at Asian cultures, for example, an you'll find that at certain points in time, the Chinese, Japanese and others believed they were not just culturally superior, but inherently superior, to their neighbors- that's racism.

There were religious movements in most of the mainstream religions that actually objected to allowing certain kinds of people from converting to the faith because of who they were, and some of which still cause conflicts today. Its not a theological schism thats driving Islamic Arabs agains Islamic Africans in portions of the world.

 

[fusangite]

If you look at Asian cultures, for example, an you'll find that at certain points in time, the Chinese, Japanese and others believed they were not just culturally superior, but inherently superior, to their neighbors- that's racism.

We're not talking about oriental social theories here. We're talking about medieval Europe. The overwhelming consensus of historians, sociologists and other academics who have studied the emergence of modernity is that racism, as we understand it, came into being between the 16th and 18th centuries.

I'm no expert on pre-modern ideas of race in East Asia or South Asia so I am in no position to dispute your statements about these cultures. That said, I do question the idea that the Japanese understood race as Europeans and Euro-Americans came to understand it. As I recall it, nationality and caste not physiological characteristics were the main metrics of discrimination for Japanese society. But perhaps I'm out of my depth there.

There were religious movements in most of the mainstream religions that actually objected to allowing certain kinds of people from converting to the faith because of who they were,

Indeed. But what you are doing here is expanding the definition of racism to the point where it loses its value as a term because you are trying to encompass discrimination on the basis of caste and nationality within it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We're not talking about oriental social theories here. We're talking about medieval Europe.

Neither am I- I'm citing some particular examples of societies contemporaneous to medieval Europe that had racist attitudes. To the imperial Chinese and Japanese, if you weren't one of them, you weren't just culturally inferior, you were inherently inferior- a racist attitude.

But what you are doing here is expanding the definition of racism to the point where it loses its value as a term because you are trying to encompass discrimination on the basis of caste and nationality within it.

Once again, no. When, as I mentioned, Islamic Arabs seek to kill Islamic Africans on a basis other than nationality (they're sharing the same country), religious sect (its not Shia versus Sunni), or greed (they're going after rich and poor alike), whats left is their race...and that battle has been on again, off again for centuries.

But really...this is a minor side issue- let it suffice to say that there are all kinds of modern alterations to "medieval culture" introduced in the game, and move along.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

*headtilt*

Did someone say . . . headtilt?

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I thought a headtilt was where you just tilted your head to the side a bit, not move the rest of your body.

 

[Hussar]

Another piece of technology that would keep fantasy settings firmly in the Middle Ages is a lack of refrigeration. Not being able to move food any great distances (by and large) means that you cannot have large urban centers (again, by and large) and reduces the majority of populations to subsitence farming. Since there's no magic that easily recreates refrigeration, there would be a great difficulty in progressing too much further.

Although, as a side note, one anachronism that has always bothered me was the artwork of an 18th century galleon, complete with gunports, in a Scarred Lands supplement. While I'm not a huge historical facist, I do draw the line at ships that could have sailed into Charleston at the end of the American Revolution.

 

[Staffan]

Since there's no magic that easily recreates refrigeration, there would be a great difficulty in progressing too much further.

Prestidigitation can "chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material." 1 lb isn't all that much, but it serves as a decent basis for a magic item that can work on a larger scale.

Tome & Blood specifies that "chill" means dropping the temperature by 40 degrees F, but not below freezing.

 

[fusangite]

Neither am I- I'm citing some particular examples of societies contemporaneous to medieval Europe that had racist attitudes. To the imperial Chinese and Japanese, if you weren't one of them, you weren't just culturally inferior, you were inherently inferior- a racist attitude.

So how is the germane to how medieval Europeans thought? Furthermore, you have yet to persuade me that the Japanese saw things racially rather than nationally, given the abundance of evidence I see of the Japanese lacking any super-national racial framework in the pre-modern period.

Once again, no. When, as I mentioned, Islamic Arabs seek to kill Islamic Africans on a basis other than nationality (they're sharing the same country),

If you're talking about post-1880 Africa now (and I thought we were talking about the medieval world), how can you possibly argue nationality and country are the same thing? Name one African country other than Egypt where nation and country are the same.

But really...this is a minor side issue- let it suffice to say that there are all kinds of modern alterations to "medieval culture" introduced in the game, and move along.

I'm happy to move along as long as you recognize that you're basically calling every mainstream scholar who examines the emergence of European and Euro-American racism wrong if you continue to assert that racism existed in pre-modern Europe. Now, there is a debate in the field about whether racism originated in the 15th, 16th or 18th centuries but to suggest racism was a feature of medieval Europe is to challenge an overwhelming academic consensus.

 

[fusangite]

Another piece of technology that would keep fantasy settings firmly in the Middle Ages is a lack of refrigeration.

There is a magical ability to manufacture ice at fairly low levels. Refrigeration doesn't need freon. It just needs ice.

Not being able to move food any great distances (by and large) means that you cannot have large urban centers (again, by and large)

Okay. So, how do you explain the Roman Empire, the Mexico Valley civilizations, Andean civilization, China, etc. etc.?

and reduces the majority of populations to subsitence farming. Since there's no magic that easily recreates refrigeration,

Chill metal?

there would be a great difficulty in progressing too much further.

This presumes a unilinear theory of progress that sociologists and historians overwhelmingly reject.