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Obryn

Hero
Clever you. There is a point where any set of rules are pushed to their limits. In real life, we have judges who do their best to interpret rules in the spirit they were intended in order to reach the most reasonable result. A part of being a DM has to be, at least in part, being a judge. And that's not a flaw in the game. There has never been a set of rules created by anyone ever that has not required some rulings around the perimeter to prevent shenanigans. Anyone who expects different from D&D basic is a bit . . . .

Well, whatever. I was going to say something there but it didn't sound nice. So I will slap myself on the wrist and go outside and play. It's a nice day.
Hey, I'm down with the DM being a judge. It's part of her job. However, if this is something that all the designers didn't intend and if they all think it's the wrong way to use it... well, that indicates a failure in design to me. Clearly, the DM can patch it, or say "stop it," but that doesn't excuse a badly-written rule.

Honestly, what's the issue? So what if you can chain short rests? So what if a fighter can heal back to full in 2-5 hours?
Frankly, I don't think it's a problem at all, since I'll be going with faster healing in general. I just think a rule should be designed to match its intent, and if this wasn't intended, then it shouldn't be written like it is.
 

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thunktanker

First Post
Hey, I'm down with the DM being a judge. It's part of her job. However, if this is something that all the designers didn't intend and if they all think it's the wrong way to use it... well, that indicates a failure in design to me. Clearly, the DM can patch it, or say "stop it," but that doesn't excuse a badly-written rule.


Frankly, I don't think it's a problem at all, since I'll be going with faster healing in general. I just think a rule should be designed to match its intent, and if this wasn't intended, then it shouldn't be written like it is.

I'm not sure if we can say that all the designers of the game think this is the wrong way to play. I think the position of one of them is that playing that way sounds boring to him, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
 

hbarsquared

Quantum Chronomancer
Frankly, I don't think it's a problem at all, since I'll be going with faster healing in general. I just think a rule should be designed to match its intent, and if this wasn't intended, then it shouldn't be written like it is.

Granted.

My thought is that the designers saw an unintended consequence to the rule, then actively decided that it did not matter.. If changing the wording, or making the rule more complicated, might have other unintended consequences, or create a barrier to entry, there would be no reason to change it.

My interpretation, anyway.
 

Bugleyman

First Post
If we imagine a short rest as catching one's breath, binding one's wounds, etc. then "chaining" them makes no sense. Mechanically, you can either take a short rest, or a long rest. That's it. Trying to take two short rests in a row should be met with "Ok, you rest longer. There is no mechanical effect," just as trying to take two long rests in a row should be met with "you're not tired."

This is what happens if you try to approach and RPG like it is a world simulator. I shudder to think what would happen if some people read 13th Age...:cool:
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
Mearls is right, in that I don't think spamming second wind will be a problem at the table. But from a simulationist point of view, it's a very awkward ability.

Making it temporary hit points solves the problem, and feels more representative of getting your second wind. It's an adrenalin rush that lets you fight on like you were refreshed, but wears off when you settle down.

So, that's probably how I'll rule on it.
 

Maliki67

First Post
I don't think the rule, as written is the problem, I think Mikes answer to the question was not a good one. (I also think he was caught off guard a bit, and didn't have time to think about his answer first.)

As others have pointed out, the wording for a short rest is that is at least an hour. Resting two hours is not two short rests, so at least by the last play test rules, there is no stringing together short rests.

If you pay attention to how short rests are worded, then there is no need to change to wording of the second wind ability, it works as intended as written.
 


DDNFan

Banned
Banned
If you pay attention to how short rests are worded, then there is no need to change to wording of the second wind ability, it works as intended as written.

Nope.

From How to Play:

Short Rest
A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long,
during which you catch your breath,
eat, drink, and clean and bind wounds.

Where on earth do you get the impression that you there can't be two consecutive periods of downtime, concatenated one shortly after another?

It certainly isn't in the rules as written. If it is, tell us how long exactly it is until you can take another short rest after the first one, because that is a pertinent rules tidbit which would affect many tables. You can't, because there is no such rule.

And judging by Mearls' response to how to deal with multiple short rests (DM tell players they are being boring), it's not there in the final rules, either. Or maybe someone else wrote it in the final rules while he's not aware of it (we can always hope), in which case it becomes a matter of, why. Because if you happen to get into a combat immediately after a short rest, which often happens by design, since players are fresh and they charge in, then you need a solid rule to tell them no, you can't take another short rest after that combat. Telling players they can't do "encounter nova" guerilla strikes just because the fighter has Second Wind seems like an even poorer choice than leaving this serious flaw in the game in there.

The real solution here is for it to use HD or Temp HP, obviously. Temp HP would be instantly better because the ability is called stamina, and like an adrenalin rush, dissipates after 5 minutes.

Simulationist rules are simply better. They make the action easier to understand without a veneer of gamey terminology to confuse people and expect them to come up with weird explanations for things that should be simple to understand.
 
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DDNFan

Banned
Banned
Simulation -- much like the cake -- is a lie. ;)

I think a lot of people are confusing the term simulationism with merely having logical and consistent rules. You can most definitely have one without the other, but the more simulationist the rules are, the more consistent they have to be, else they wouldn't be able to simulate anything.

I see this argument trotted out in all kinds of forums while rationalising illogical rules for the sake of power gaming. In this case, giving fighters free regeneration without having the guts to call it what it is.
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
And judging by Mearls' response to how to deal with multiple short rests (DM tell players they are being boring)

That's pretty, well, bad advice IMHO. I can see lots of players simply shrugging and responding with "We'll quit being boring as soon as Joe Fighter finishes healing."

Better advice would be "Use the wandering monsters tables religiously."
 

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