D&D 5E D&D Unboxing Starter Set Video is on Youtube

[Grazzt]

Fighters with max HP at zero cost, every battle is broken, dude. Sorry.

Fighters at max hit points die just like fighters with 1 hit point...just not as quickly.

 

[DDNFan]

Look, keeping in mind what I just wrote in the post right above this one, this is an obviously rules-lawyery reading of a rule that a short rest is "one or more hours" and the single push up is your "bag of rats."

Simply put? You're in the wrong here. If the short rest rule was that each hour is specifically another rest, that's one thing. That's how short rests worked in 4e, but it's not how they work in Next. You're taking an obviously obtuse and abusive reading of it in order to sneak your temp hp obsession in through some kind of loophole.

It's not a loophole, I'm not going to argue basic logic with you forever, man. Two separate spans of time can be labelled whatever you want them to be. If there is a separator delineating one from the other, they are separate. There is no rule that connects them in any way after you end the first rest voluntarily, so I'm not rules lawyering, you are. You're making up rules that do not exist. Until they do, all you need to do to stop resting is to stop resting. And then begin again. Man, it's tough arguing against imaginary rules text that doesn't exist as if that makes *me* obtuse.

Let me draw a diagram since it's so hard for this concept to sink in:

Sequence of events:
Rest A begins, 11:00am
Second Wind A
Rest A ends, 12:00pm
...something, anything happens. I stand up and do something that's not considered to be resting by any reasonable person
Rest B starts, 12:01pm
Second Wind B
Rest B ends, 1:01pm

C, D, E, etc...until you are full HP. The entire adventuring day isn't wasted. Player's time isn't even wasted, it's one more d10 rolled per short rest takes 5 seconds each of game time.

If you think that's cheesy, tell me why your heroic fighter who's fighting monsters deserves only one hour rest, while you and I probably take multiple hours of rest, then breaks to do some chore, then another rest immediately after. It's railroading to not allow your character do to perfectly sensible things that all of us do each day in real life. After I do strenuous activity or work all day, I'm not refreshed merely one hour after I get home. Sometimes I need two. Then I go out, and come back, rest some more. Do laundry, rest some more. Each rest is a separate rest, logically, since they are broken by non-rest activity. See the diagram above.

 

[Remathilis]

Taking two short rests in a row is not at all similar to carrying a bag of rats. The fighter character would know that he heals or undoes the damage he just received at a rate of once per hour of short rest. So, take two short rests, or three, or five, until he is full up.

The wizard knows that every spell he casts decreases his ability to handle future tasks. Therefore, its in his best interest to return to camp and rest after every fight. Go Nova and Go Home.

You know what? I HOPE people exploit this. Abuse it to the Nine Hells. If taking a midday siesta keeps PCs from running back to Phandalin after every moderately tough encounter, I'm all for it. Hell, the rogue will be happy the cleric isn't wasting all his Cure Spells on the fighter can get some healing for himself. He might even use some of that downtime to get some scouting done without the fighter's noisy clumsy ass alerting every monster in a quarter-mile of their presence.

If it means the PCs quit treating adventuring like a weekend camping trip with occasional walks to the local mine to beat up a room of kobolds and back, bring on the Second Winding.

 

[Obryn]

Unlimited free healing with no cap per day is broken. On the fighter too, no less. Why ever buy a healing potion? Or use your own hit dice? You can use your free, surgeless healing aka Second Wind, and not spend HD or your allies' Cure Wounds spells.

Fighters with max HP at zero cost, every battle is broken, dude. Sorry.

Okay, so your worst case scenario is the Cleric casting their spells more productively?

Oh. The horror.

 

[Talath]

Can we get a sub forum for second wind arguments? I'm tired of slogging through this and other threads.

 

[DDNFan]

Okay, so your worst case scenario is the Cleric casting their spells more productively?

Oh. The horror.

It means my character, who actually can cast Cure Wounds, can only enter a smaller number of combats at full HP than my equal-levelled fighter beside me, despite him taking a class that doesn't know how to cast Cure Wounds, and didn't spend any of this character resources or build choices on it.

It means the fighter is at max HP more often while receiving zero external healing, yet having taken (roughly) the same amount of damage.

Waiting for this to sink...in

 

[Obryn]

U

It's not a loophole, I'm not going to argue basic logic with you forever, man. Two separate spans of time can be labelled whatever you want them to be. If there is a separator delineating one from the other, they are separate. There is no rule that connects them in any way after you end the first rest voluntarily, so I'm not rules lawyering, you are. You're making up rules that do not exist. Until they do, all you need to do to stop resting is to stop resting. And then begin again. Man, it's tough arguing against imaginary rules text that doesn't exist as if that makes *me* obtuse.

Let me draw a diagram since it's so hard for this concept to sink in:

Sequence of events:
Rest A begins, 11:00am
Second Wind A
Rest A ends, 12:00pm
...something, anything happens. I stand up and do something that's not considered to be resting by any reasonable person
Rest B starts, 12:01pm
Second Wind B
Rest B ends, 1:01pm

C, D, E, etc...until you are full HP. The entire adventuring day isn't wasted. Player's time isn't even wasted, it's one more d10 rolled per short rest takes 5 seconds each of game time.

If you think that's cheesy, tell me why your heroic fighter who's fighting monsters deserves only one hour rest, while you and I probably take multiple hours of rest, then breaks to do some chore, then another rest immediately after. It's railroading to not allow your character do to perfectly sensible things that all of us do each day in real life. After I do strenuous activity or work all day, I'm not refreshed merely one hour after I get home. Sometimes I need two. Then I go out, and come back, rest some more. Do laundry, rest some more. Each rest is a separate rest, logically, since they are broken by non-rest activity. See the diagram above.

Oh man, you're pretty far gone here.

If I have a pile of salt and I add another equal amount of salt to it, I still have one pile of salt, not two.

e:

Can we get a sub forum for second wind arguments? I'm tired of slogging through this and other threads.

Good point. I'm done.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Taking two short rests in a row is not at all similar to carrying a bag of rats. The fighter character would know that he heals or undoes the damage he just received at a rate of once per hour of short rest. So, take two short rests, or three, or five, until he is full up.

I'm not breaking the rules by playing by the rules, the rules are broken. Railroading PCs is not the answer. Anything they put in the FAQ to limit when you can take a short rest will probably seem contrived and arbitrary, and anyway will be exploitable. So sure, the fighter uses second wind, then they start walking for a bit, until whenever the new FAQ suggestion or rule states that sufficient time has passed, or circumstances have arisen, and the player can decide if he wants to risk using an HD or take another short rest as soon as the criteria are met. If I'm on a budget, and I can avoid wasting money, why are you telling me to waste money? (or cure spells) I can wait a couple minutes before starting another hour-long rest, if I can take another rest for an hour anyway.

Lay on Hands is a certain number of times per day. The cleric healing ability is capped to 50%, which inherently stops it from making Cure Wounds or HD obsolete. Second Wind isn't capped or limited in any way except a flimsy, "when does one rest end and another begin"-way. Which is bad game design. When you have a healing limit for the fighter class, it had better have hard, serious caps on it that aren't open to debate.

Until there's a limit on the number of short rests you can take, or they add some kind of delay between short rests, it is perfectly rational, sensible, and not an exploit in any way, to play the game by the rules.

Why should I cast cure wounds on my party member when he can cure himself now, at no daily cost? Makes no sense, in character or out of character. I enjoy playing games with rules that make sense, that's why aside from this and a handful of other rules in 5th edition, I play it weekly.

If I didn't think the rules made sense overall, I wouldn't play this game. There are two other rules lawyers in my group, and they also similarly dislike arbitrary DM fiat or hand wavey rationalizations for not allowing something so simple.

This wasn't a problem in the October packet, they introduced this later.

Now, this is what I'd call an overreaction. A fighter can heal to full with some short rests using her second wind. She can probably also heal fully spending some hit dice. In fact, if she opts to just spend the full eight hours resting, she'll fully heal, no matter how much damage, without resorting to any feature. That's how recovery works in 5E. You can love this, you can hate this, but saying second wind is a problematic mechanic when the rest of the system works like that is absurd.

In fact, if poor little wizard only needs eight hours to fully heal from damage taken earlier, it's perfectly ok for mighty fighter to take a deep breath, bind her wounds and be ready for action in half of that. The system is saying: everyone can stop for a while, use a healing kit, eat, drink and roll some hit dice to restore HP, but the fighter is so tough that she'll leave those valuable resources for those who are desperately in need. She just needs to catch her breath and will be ready to go.

Surely, second wind needs serious reworking if it's going to be used in a campaign where characters heal more slowly, but I see no real discrepancy between the RAW and the rest of the recovery system. D&D characters have lizard DNA these days, I'm still thinking about how to fix that on my own game.

 

[Maliki67]

Can we get a sub forum for second wind arguments? I'm tired of slogging through this and other threads.

+1

I don't think anyone is changing their thoughts on this, both sides have stated how they interpret the rule. There is plenty more in the box to talk about.

 

[Tony Semana]

Can we get a sub forum for second wind arguments? I'm tired of slogging through this and other threads.

Yes, oh god, please, yes.