D&DN and Epic Fantasy ((Apologies, Long))

[Anaxander]

Think about LotR. Middle Earth is dramatically different by the end of the series. Sauron is gone, the elves leave, magic is going away. This is a setting that is very, very different than what it was at the start. Compare, say, Conan. By the end of the Conan stories, Conan goes off into the sunset and Hyboria is largely the same as it was before he came in. Nothing really changes. Life goes on.

This is one of the hallmark differences between S&S and Epic Fantasy.

So, I do disagree with the idea that this shouldn't be tied to level. Sure, your 5th level character could be king, but, Emperor? How long would he actually survive in that position? And, lets face it, every setting book out there pegs the movers and shakers of the setting at pretty high level. Could you imagine the head of The Harpers as a 3rd level bard? The Grand High Poobah of the Zhentarim as a 5th level wizard? A member of the Circle of Eight as a 6th level sorcerer?

I don't quite follow the logic of the argument. If anything, the comparison between Conan and LotR points to two different ways of storytelling, S&S vs. Epic Fantasy, and does not in any way relate to the perceived level of the protagonists. Remember the whole point of E6 began with the premise that Gandalf was a lvl 5 wizard. This didn't keep him from having an impact on the setting. Conan would be of a much higher level than Frodo or Sam. The only reason he doesn't impact the setting is... because of the setting and the story.

Having an impact on the setting has nothing intrinsically to do with levels, but it depends entirely on the playstyle - so I don't want it to be "hard-coded" into the game.

 

[Hussar]

I wouldn't say the goal is to blow up the setting. But I'd say the role of the hero evolve for Stagehand to Actor to Supporting Actor to Lead Role to Directer to Writer to Producer.
/snip

I'd agree. The goal isn't to blow up the setting, but, one of the basic tropes of Epic Fantasy is that your setting is going to get a major working over by the end of the story. That level of change is largely absent in S&S fiction.

I do agree with the second part of what you said though.

I don't quite follow the logic of the argument. If anything, the comparison between Conan and LotR points to two different ways of storytelling, S&S vs. Epic Fantasy, and does not in any way relate to the perceived level of the protagonists. Remember the whole point of E6 began with the premise that Gandalf was a lvl 5 wizard. This didn't keep him from having an impact on the setting. Conan would be of a much higher level than Frodo or Sam. The only reason he doesn't impact the setting is... because of the setting and the story.

Having an impact on the setting has nothing intrinsically to do with levels, but it depends entirely on the playstyle - so I don't want it to be "hard-coded" into the game.

Gandalf was a freaking ANGEL. He was an immortal being and the right hand of a god. However, I would say that E6 fits absolutely perfectly with S&S sensibilties. A 6th level cap on PC's means that they can never, ever, have any real lasting effect on the setting through personal power. They will never challenge the gods. They will never invade Hell. They will never do anything truly epic in scale. At best, they might be king of a nation. But, when they die, the setting will not have radically changed from when they were alive.

An epic level character, in D&D, can literally rewrite the fabric of reality. He can flatten mountains (heck, even just a sufficiently high level cleric can do that), he can kill gods, he can join the pantheon or even start a new one. An epic level character isn't just a king, he is quite literally one of the most powerful beings on the planet. The comparison to Doctor Manhattan is quite apt.

Are you really saying that a 4th level wizard can affect a setting as much as a 24th level one could? Some classes have had this hard wired into the class at some points. If you were the Grand Druid, there was only one of you in the whole world. You were IT. You could command any and all druids in the entire setting. E6 simply doesn't have any equivalent to that.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

It's been a truism for a long time that D&D undergoes fairly radical shifts every few levels. At least in large part due to the magic system, but, the level system does change the game for any class. At low level, say 1-3 for AD&D, 1-7 for 3e, Heroic Tier for 4e, your character really can't have any lasting impact on the setting. Not directly anyway. Sure, he might stop the rampaging dragon or end that slave ring, but, by and large, nothing your character can personally achieve at this level will blow up the setting.

At the other end of the scale though, your character does actually have the personal power to blow up the setting. The characters can directly challenge GODS. They could become gods. And, "having a lasting impact on the setting" is what Epic Fantasy is all about.

I think you may be confusing a truism of what has been for a truism for what must have been. Nor do I think that D&D got that way by explicit design. On the contrary, it got that way because a lot of "stuff" got piled onto "level" the same way a lot of meaning got piled onto "race" and "class".

While I'm certainly not an advocate of unpacking everything in D&D down into its component parts so that people can mix and match how they want (e.g. GURPS), I"m also not a fan of packing too much into one pile. If GURPS is an ala carte menu with no apparent short cuts, D&D has been where you get handed a sack already filled to busting and stuff hanging out the sides. I'd like a few sacks, each with a reasonable amount of stuff in them.

 

[JohnSnow]

An epic level character, in D&D, can literally rewrite the fabric of reality. He can flatten mountains (heck, even just a sufficiently high level cleric can do that), he can kill gods, he can join the pantheon or even start a new one. An epic level character isn't just a king, he is quite literally one of the most powerful beings on the planet. The comparison to Doctor Manhattan is quite apt.

There's actually a very good and interesting point made here.

People often comment that epic level D&D characters are superheroes. But that's putting it mildly. They aren't JUST superheroes. They are the most cosmically powerful superheroes. An epic level character in D&D isn't Batman, Flash, Hawkman, the Thing, Iron Man, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine or even Storm. He (or she) is Dr. Manhattan, Thor, Superman, the Silver Surfer, Phoenix, Thanos, Darkseid, the Beyonder, or even Galactus. These characters aren't just more powerful - they're freaking GODS (or might as well be)!

That's...a little different than heroes.

 

[innerdude]

My only addition to the OP would be to say that simply "scaling" the math from levels 1-20, or 1-30 is frankly less interesting than the epic tier options Hussar presents.

I suppose it really comes down to the TYPE of game you want to play. If the point of play is to "redefine" or create a new pantheon of gods, then the assumed logic behind the rules/setting and GM intervention will be vastly different, than if the assumed logic has more of a "world building" slant.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of the whole planar travel / "demigod" style of play, and would like more options for world-building high-level play--and yes, it's probably entirely related to being weaned on D&D by BECMI.

 

[Hussar]

I think you may be confusing a truism of what has been for a truism for what must have been. Nor do I think that D&D got that way by explicit design. On the contrary, it got that way because a lot of "stuff" got piled onto "level" the same way a lot of meaning got piled onto "race" and "class".

While I'm certainly not an advocate of unpacking everything in D&D down into its component parts so that people can mix and match how they want (e.g. GURPS), I"m also not a fan of packing too much into one pile. If GURPS is an ala carte menu with no apparent short cuts, D&D has been where you get handed a sack already filled to busting and stuff hanging out the sides. I'd like a few sacks, each with a reasonable amount of stuff in them.

Oh, fair enough. I think you're absolutely right. This is more of an emergent property than something deliberate. Although, to be fair, it emerged very, very early. You had Immortals rules in the mid-80's and AD&D had the idea of getting a keep and followers at name level as well. The game was presumed to chang at certain points.

Imagine for a second that we make the GDQ series of modules. The G series could stay in the S&S style - the PC's go in, do the nasty to the giants, and the peasants rejoice. But, by the time you reach the D series, the PC's are movers and shakers in the world. Maybe their reward for the G series is title and land (not an unreasonable reward) and we start into the idea of Epic Fantasy, although still heavily leavened with S&S sensiblities.

So, the D series becomes more along the lines of Star Trek DS9 where the PC's are the top people of a fairly large pyramid of actors dealing with issues that are split between personal and macro scale.

Enter Queen of the Demonweb Pits. As written, it's a high level dungeon crawl. It's a fun module and one I love to pieces, but, you could make it an Epic Fantasy adventure fairly easily. Instead of invading the Abyss, reverse things. Llolth, finally tired of poncing around with peons, launches a major assault on the land and the PC's have to rally the setting to defend and then push the Queen back into the Abyss, with the final showdown occurring in the Giant Spider Robot in Llolth's plane.

The focus of the last module shifts from the PC's being the primary actors in all actions, to them orchestrating and playing the power politics game.

 

[Tallifer]

It sounds like Hussar wants a Fifth Edition version of Birthright. With a little more fantasy thrown in than just a poor recreation of a mediaeval Earth.

 

[Sunseeker]

So, the D series becomes more along the lines of Star Trek DS9 where the PC's are the top people of a fairly large pyramid of actors dealing with issues that are split between personal and macro scale.

Did you know that DS9 is the only Star Trek series I have ever outrightly hated?

In any case, while this is fine for a specific campaign, I don't want to see your idea as 5e core.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Did you know that DS9 is the only Star Trek series I have ever outrightly hated?

Now that you've said that, I wonder if I can ever take anything you say seriously again.

 

[Blackwarder]

I like the idea but I don't think that it should be part of the epic tier of play, I think that it should be part of the paragon tier...

Warder