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D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

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Zardnaar

Legend
I think the main problem in the 3rd/4th ed break is that the I'm not sure people are aware of how bad it was hence the lack of 4thisms in D&D. D&D has always been number 1 and now it is number 3 defeated by a clone of 3.5. That is a good thing/bad thing. Paizo makes some nice product I have Pathfinder but I do not regard it as the penultimate version of D&D. I wanted 4th ed to be more like SWSE but we got 4th ed as it was and here it is. Not sure how the designers convinced themselves the fans would like it especially the fluff changes.

Currently leaning towards a d20 version of AD&D AKA a real 3rd ed. D&DN just doesn't do it atm. It is a playtest and everything but BA is going nowhere and it is the first version of D&D I may not even bother with on release. I did not like 4th ed in the end but I still bought it the first chance I got. So my best hope really is.

1. Hope for D&D Saga
2. Hope for AD&D d20.
3. Hope for Pathfinder 2.

Since I doubt D&DN will be 1 or 2 grognard time and throw Paizo a little bit of money I suppose.
 

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oblivious

First Post
I guess I'm being imprecise and missing a step.

You can have martial/expert/magic characters. In some editions/games each type of character focuses on a different part of the rules system (combat/skills/spells). In 4e these labels are just skins on top of combat-focused characters.

This way all PCs have equal narrative control.

his game is not "basically a sequence of fights" from what he's communicated on these boards.

MAybe I should replace "fights" with "Scenarios."
 


Abridged version of fictional positioning is basically the statement that in order for something to happen, it has to be both mechanically possible and make sense within the shared imaginary space/fiction.

Fictional Positioning as a verb, is considering the fiction, and looking at ways to shape it to fit what you want out of play; this can be from a tactical and/or creative standpoint. Fictional Positioning as a concept, is where everything stands in relation to each other in the fiction; the things the group has agreed to have happened before play or have emerged during play, the feel for and nature of the characters, the situation, the setting.

Wait... I don't get it. The problem, apparently, was that pre-4E D&D had tightly defined combat mechanics and loosely defined noncombat mechanics. So 4E solved it by making combat mechanics absolutely locked down, and noncombat mechanics loose to the point of nonexistence?

I'm not sure how this comes out of 4th edition play. Perhaps instead of "loose" you mean "abstract?" 4e uses an abstract, non-combat conflict resolution system that is very much akin to many narrative games' unified mechanics for conflict resolution. It provides conditions for success and failure just like in combat; bad guys HPs are to success required to succeed as good guys HPs are to failures required to lose, with defenses to overcome being the DCs required to succeed in each task/panel. While the DMG1 has awful instructions/advice, the DMG2 is quite good and regardless, its extremely intuitive in play (especially if you are used to other systems that have a unified mechanical framework for all conflict resolution).

What's more, there is an enormous number of PC build resources committed to non-combat conflict resolution. Outside of the Skills system (and Backgrounds), there are Themes, Skill Powers, Martial Practices, Rituals, and Feats (and their powers) that round out or improve a character's acumen in exploration and social conflict. What's more, most At-Wills and many class Utility Powers are fully functional in (or outright intended for) non-combat conflict resolution.

I've got a Bladesinger player in my campaign who has basically a full-fledged Ranger + due to his Theme, Martial Practices, Background, Skills, and a few Feats. I've got a Rogue player in my campaign who has basically a full-fledged Sea Captain and Engineer due to his Background, Theme, Skills, and few Utility Powers.
 

pemerton

Legend
it seems to have something to do with an improvisational style of DMing and tailoring encounters to the PCs.
That's not a bad approximation to start with.

4e has a lot of features obviously inspired by indie games. "Pemertonian scene framing" (not my phrase, by the way - I've always been clear in referring to the games/designers that I learned the approach from) is an approach to 4e that draws on those features, and pushes them a bit harder than the 4e designers explicitly mention (though the DMG and DMG2 already push in this direction), by drawing on advice in other relevant games like HeroWars/Quest, Burning Wheel, Marvel Heroic RP, Maelstrom Storytelling, etc.

The "Permotonian" view seems to be that a game is basically a sequence of fights (fight A, fight B, fight C) that have been pre-ordained. The context of each fight is re-skinned on the fly by the DM based on player actions, while the content of each fight is re-skinned by players on the fly. In a way, "narrative control" reduces to who has power to re-skin what.
That's not accurate.

First, the elements are not "fights", they're "encounters/challenges" (in 4e terminology) or "situations" (in Forge terminology). These involve conflict, but it need not be violent conflict. Second, and more important, there is no pre-ordaining. That's the whole point. Re-skinning has very little to do with it - there's actually very little of that in my game. (Not that I've got anything against it. But generally I like the 4e flavour text.)

Hence "narrative control" is not about who can reskin what. It's about who gets to decide what the shared fiction inclues, and hence what the game is about.

Fictional positioning means resolving a scenario without recourse to the mechanics
That's not how I use the term - my use is influenced by Vincent Baker use of it on his blog. By "fictional positioning" I mean that the shared fiction matters to resolution. Your description would be a subset of that, but not the whole thing.

An example which fits your description of fictional positioning, from White Plume Mountain: the PCs come to the frictionless corridor with the super-tetanus pits and the players wonder how the PCs can cross it; they decide to surf across on doors; they therefore have their PCs go back in the dungeon, unhinge some doors, bring them back and describe their surfing. In AD&D, at least, that could all be resolved without engaging the formal mechanics: that would be resolution by pure fictional positioning.

But you could imagine putting in a couple of checks - if the doors are well-engineered and the PCs don't have tools, maybe a STR or DEX (or even INT) check is required to unhing them; if the GM thinks the door-surfing is hard, maybe DEX checks to see if it works. The fictional positioning is still crucial though ("We're in a dungeon with doors that can be unhinged; doors are big enough to surf on if you slide them across a frictionless surface; etc").

I don't think 4e makes fictional positioning especially important - as the WPM example shows, fictional positioning is front and centre in heaps of classic D&D, for instance. Rather, I think 4e raises some distinct challenges in relation to how fictional positioning works in the game. Those who say 4e's just a boardgame - ie a game in which fictional positioning doesn't matter, and it's just rules vs rules that never touch the "story" - have noticed the challenges, but haven't noticed the various ways in which 4e resolution does depend upon the fictional position of the PCs. (I won't elaborate here - I've debated it a day or two ago with KM in the current Legends & Lore thread.)

In my experience, that was far more common in BD&D and AD&D, where the rules covered less territory (and were often so jumbled and incoherent that fictional positioning was the only way to make sense of them). 3E and 4E have much heavier, more comprehensive rulesets.
Agreed, as per the above paragraph.

As I see it, one difference between 3E and 4e's resolution systems is that the 3E system takes more input, at various points throughout resolution, from rules elements/descriptors that are direct expressions of the fiction: eg in a trip attempt we ask "How big is it?" (answer comes from rules, but these read off the fiction - eg a 10' tall ogre is Large), "How many legs does it have?", etc. And if someone notices an element of the fiction that seems relevant, but that the formal mechanics don't pick up, they're expected to factor it in (eg via a circumstance modifier).

4e's mechanics are more formal and in some ways more closed, but that doesn't make the fiction irrelevant - it feeds into framing (eg what keywords are in play); and the narration of consequences, which then feed into future framings.

Well, the problem with that is that in some cases, inclusion of Element X necessarily excludes Element Y.
I think this is right, although those connectins/exclusions aren't always obvious just to reflection and inspection.

But it's because I agree with you on this that I have doubts about how D&Dnext, on its current trajectory, will deliver a 4e-style experience.

What would be an example of a PF-ism that you think merits such scrutiny and isn't receiving it?
My take on the 3E/PF vs 4e issue - to the extent that that's a useful way of framing is this:

I see heaps of posts attacking 3E/PF multi-classing, overpowered casters, fiddly/useless skills etc. The counterpart of these attacks wrt 4e are things like multi-classing feats being too limited/expesive, hybrids being potentially broken, feat taxes, the bad stat scaling which also makes the skill system less smooth than it could be, etc.

I don't know whether PF players get upset by those posts (the main ones that I notice seem to upset them are ones about caster dominance, and related posts about the 5MWD - but that's just my utterly unscientific observation). I don't get upset by those 4e criticisms - in fact, I think many are warranted (although I don't think the feat tax thing is such a big deal - I play without expertise feats in my game - with the exception of Superior Will!).

The posts about 4e that do make me respond with irritation and/or frustration are the ones that tell me 4e is not really an RPG because (i) it's a skirmish game, or (ii) it ruins immersin, or (iii) it lacks verisimilitude, or (iv) it has too much metagame, or (v) it neutered the GM, or (vi) it lacks meaningful fictional positioning, or . . . And I personally don't ever recall seeing a post telling PF/3E players that their game is not an RPG.

The reason those posts irritate me is because they are ignorant - they display a complete lack of familiarity with the past 15+ years of RPG design (including but by no means limited to The Forge) - and they are rude. It's just rude to tell someone posting to an RPG board, talking about RPGing techniques and experiences, to tell them they've got their own self-understanding so fundamentally wrong.
 

Xmarksthespot

First Post
The posts about 4e that do make me respond with irritation and/or frustration are the ones that tell me 4e is not really an RPG because . . . (ii) it ruins immersin, or (iii) it lacks verisimilitude . . .


I really wanted to give 4e a chance. I had no problem with the meta. But I just don't feel it. I don't see the verisimilitude some 4e players claim it has. This is not a critique, it's more of a question where did you find the verisimilitude. Maybe I haven't looked in the right place.
 

Obryn

Hero
I really wanted to give 4e a chance. I had no problem with the meta. But I just don't feel it. I don't see the verisimilitude some 4e players claim it has. This is not a critique, it's more of a question where did you find the verisimilitude. Maybe I haven't looked in the right place.
It's in the effects and results, not the process, basically.

At least for me.

-O
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I really wanted to give 4e a chance. I had no problem with the meta. But I just don't feel it. I don't see the verisimilitude some 4e players claim it has. This is not a critique, it's more of a question where did you find the verisimilitude. Maybe I haven't looked in the right place.

Good question, but can we move it to another thread, where it would be on topic?
 

stoloc

First Post
I really wanted to give 4e a chance. I had no problem with the meta. But I just don't feel it. I don't see the verisimilitude some 4e players claim it has. This is not a critique, it's more of a question where did you find the verisimilitude. Maybe I haven't looked in the right place.

For me what I am looking for is "Can the system simulate heroic fantasy". Rule of Cool trumps laws of physics in my own personal evaluation of things. I tend to look at movies like "Die Hard" or a good James Bond or Indiana Jones flick and go "WOW that's COOL" and only rarely "Man that's so unrealistic" (although the second does happen sometimes)
 


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