[d20] Limit class/race choices via point buy method

[Zireael]

I recently got my hands on Eclipse: The Codex from RPGNow (a shareware point-buy classless d20 OGL supplement).

However, I would like to keep classes and races. I've seen conversion guides for 3.x and Pathfinder both, but what I want is some sort of a guideline which would prevent the players from picking OP class/race combinations.

I would like to have a top ceiling of the CPs you can spend on race or class. What would be the numbers you would pick? Races are arguably easier, as they receive no bonuses leveling up...

One more thing, you'd pick race/class at lvl1, just as in normal 3.x.

Help? Ideas?

 

[Crothian]

I don't know the product or the options and costs. But in these type of systems while limiting the points can help avoid problems what you really have to do is watch what the players are buying. It is rarely the expensive option that breaks the game but a few choice cheap items that are under priced and work together in a way that makes them better then on their own.

When I run this type of system the first thing I do is tell the players don't try to or look for ways to abuse the system. I say that will just ruin the fun for everyone and its the fastest way to end a campaign early. If that's what they want to do then it is best they go off and find a group that is okay with that. I also warn the players if characters gets a little out of hand then we will adjust them on the fly.

 

[Alzrius]

I recently got my hands on Eclipse: The Codex from RPGNow (a shareware point-buy classless d20 OGL supplement).

However, I would like to keep classes and races. I've seen conversion guides for 3.x and Pathfinder both, but what I want is some sort of a guideline which would prevent the players from picking OP class/race combinations.

I would like to have a top ceiling of the CPs you can spend on race or class. What would be the numbers you would pick? Races are arguably easier, as they receive no bonuses leveling up...

One more thing, you'd pick race/class at lvl1, just as in normal 3.x.

Help? Ideas?

Zireael, it's great to see another Eclipse fan! As a huge enthusiast of the system, I think it's criminally under-recognized for what it does for d20-based games.

You mentioned that you've seen the conversion guidelines for recreating existing classes and races in Eclipse, so I assume you're familiar with Thoth's blog right? Beyond that, I'll try to offer some useful advice.

I'm not sure how you plan to keep pre-existing races and classes in the game while using Eclipse, since the point of it is that players don't need to use pre-made "packages" of racial or class abilities. As such, I'd say give everyone 24 CPs when they level up, like normal (and 48 at level 1). In terms of race, I'd suggest limiting the CP expenditure to 31 CP or less (a +0 ECL race), probably on top of the existing racial make-ups (which will prevent the high-CP races such as elves from spending anything else).

Insofar as what powers to restrain or disallow, that's somewhat more intuitive to consider. I'd allow no more than one instance each of Fast Learner or Adept, as those can quickly allow for surprisingly large bonuses later on in a campaign (since they're freeing up a lot of points to be spent elsewhere). Also, you might want to consider putting a cap on how much Innate Enchantment can be taken (e.g. no more than 12 CP's worth).

On that note, I'd also recommend watching out for things like bumping up witchcraft via a huge amount of power points (e.g. taking levels in the wilder progression, without a caster level and corrupted for two-thirds cost/no actual powers gained, just power points - will give you a large amount of power for 2 CP per wilder level, which can then be used to keep witchcraft running essentially endlessly).

If there are any other questions or concerns you've got, I'd be glad to help! Also, try posting on Thoth's blog, as he's very receptive to questions!

 

[Zireael]

I'm not really familiar with Eclipse, as I only found it yesterday, and I thought of using it as a sort of a guideline to what classes/races are more powerful than others. Races's ECLs are often wonky, and classes have no such classification.

Unless there are better ideas? I seem to recall a Class Construction Engine and some such and some sort of a races classification? Might have been Pathfinder?

 

[Alzrius]

I'm not really familiar with Eclipse, as I only found it yesterday, and I thought of using it as a sort of a guideline to what classes/races are more powerful than others. Races's ECLs are often wonky, and classes have no such classification.

Okay, that makes sense. It took me a long time to understand Eclipse (mostly because I only looked at it very casually for quite a while), and I had to ask the co-author a lot of questions before I really got the hang of it. (What finally did it for me was looking at an example Eclipse character's list of powers and - point-for-point - referencing them in the rulebook so that I could understand what was being purchased and what it did.)

Racial ECL's are wonky normally, because they represent an absolute gradation of how much a race's powers are "worth" when that worth changes over time as characters accumulate levels. For example, having a +8 bonus to Strength can be overwhelming at level 3. On the other hand, it's not a big deal at level 20, when most characters that want/need a high Strength will have it somehow.

Eclipse largely solves that problem by making it possible to build on racial abilities via the points you get from class levels. Humans, for example, get Fast Learner, specialized for one-half cost/only grants a bonus to skills (costing 3 Character Points) - this is what grants humans a bonus skill point at each level. But a character can spend 3 more Character Points from, say, their 48 CPs they get at 1st level, and change that to "specialized for double effect/only grants a bonus to skills." Now the character has spent 6 character points on a "racial" ability, and is receiving 2 skill points at each level.

Being able to build on abilities - whether from race or class - is what makes their levels count across the wide spectrum of power from levels 1 to 20.

Unless there are better ideas? I seem to recall a Class Construction Engine and some such and some sort of a races classification? Might have been Pathfinder?

There's a note in the back of Eclipse about doing quick conversions of NPCs - simply give them 6 CPs per level for them to buy additional powers with, and don't change anything else about them.

If you want to ease into Eclipse, you might want to try that for your PCs. Just use the races and classes as written, but give them 6 Character Points at each level to buy things with. Of course, it's better not to give them unrestricted access to everything in the book - since that'd let them conceivably build any kind of character imaginable, limited only by how many points they can spend, but if you rule out the abilities you're uncertain of, and work with them in developing their characters, you should get some fairly interesting results.

 

[Zireael]

Eclipse largely solves that problem by making it possible to build on racial abilities via the points you get from class levels. Humans, for example, get Fast Learner, specialized for one-half cost/only grants a bonus to skills (costing 3 Character Points) - this is what grants humans a bonus skill point at each level. But a character can spend 3 more Character Points from, say, their 48 CPs they get at 1st level, and change that to "specialized for double effect/only grants a bonus to skills." Now the character has spent 6 character points on a "racial" ability, and is receiving 2 skill points at each level.

Being able to build on abilities - whether from race or class - is what makes their levels count across the wide spectrum of power from levels 1 to 20.



There's a note in the back of Eclipse about doing quick conversions of NPCs - simply give them 6 CPs per level for them to buy additional powers with, and don't change anything else about them.

If you want to ease into Eclipse, you might want to try that for your PCs. Just use the races and classes as written, but give them 6 Character Points at each level to buy things with. Of course, it's better not to give them unrestricted access to everything in the book - since that'd let them conceivably build any kind of character imaginable, limited only by how many points they can spend, but if you rule out the abilities you're uncertain of, and work with them in developing their characters, you should get some fairly interesting results.

Thanks a bunch, that really helps! 6 CP it is, and I'm dropping some features I deem OP.

And if I'm reading it right, Eclipse allows nearly infinite spell crafting?

 

[Alzrius]

Thanks a bunch, that really helps! 6 CP it is, and I'm dropping some features I deem OP.

You're absolutely right to drop the features that you think are too much (Path of the Dragon is usually quickly ruled out for games that aren't high-powered).

And if I'm reading it right, Eclipse allows nearly infinite spell crafting?

Sorry, "spell crafting"? I'm not sure if you mean "spellcasting," or actually creating new spells.

 

[Zireael]

Creating new spells

 

[Alzrius]

Creating new spells

Hm, can you tell me what power or ability you're referring to with regard to creating new spells?

That really seems like something that's more within the purview of Eclipse's sister book The Practical Enchanter (pg. 116-118).

 

[Zireael]

I just remembered : 6 CP is fine and dandy for further leveling, but how do I tell which classes/races are more powerful than others? We're not likely to get beyond lvl 15, where most d20 stuff breaks down still.