d20 Modern vs. Grim Tales: which is better?

[Acid_crash]

I am asking this because I know what's in d20 Modern but I don't know what Grim Tales is except its heavily influenced by d20 Modern.

What makes one better than the other? Which do you all prefer?

 

[DwelleroftheDeep]

Well I haven't played grim tales but I like d20 modern immensely, I think the thing about GT is that the core classes are all 20 level and include many class features from modern adcs as talents.

 

[Kirin'Tor]

Grim Tales is what modern was _supposed_ to be, a flexible toolkit for multi-genre gaming. It removes the clunky advanced/PrC system, using extended (20 level) versions of the 6 core classes from modern, with expanded talent trees from modern PrC's and D&D classes.

I say GT is the best core book for modern d20 gaming I've used. Great for tantasy/cyberpunk/even future (with some d20F elements)

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, for myself, I tend to use d20M WITH Grim Tales, for alot of things.

For instance, GT's equipment chapter gives great rules for BUILDING equipment (as a Game Master) but no equipment list like you have in d20M.

GT's Wealth system breakdowns skip a few gradiations, but at the same time adds in some extra rules on item rarity and town sizes that makes it great for fantasy games.

GT lets you do fantasy by breaking down alot of the D&D archetypal abilities and putting them into the form of talents, which I like alot ... but then Ben's personal biases leak through a little in places and a few of the abilities he wasn't fond of are sort of odd to get (like having to go Dedicated/Charismatic 3/3 to get Wild Empathy).

You can build a Paladin in GT, for instance, as easily as you can build a gunslinger. I like that.

For some reason, we didn't really like the GT skill system very much (EDIT: As far as the aquisition of class skills through backgrounds go, and for us, the number). Though Wulf's said he doesn't really use the backgrounds either. We stuck to it per-the-book and everybody felt really really limited skills-wise. I ended up giving away some free Class Skill choices at 4th and 8th level for folks so they could expand themselves a little more. At the same time, I REALLY like the GT skill system ... choosing your own skills, everybody getting a Profession ... but everybody getting a Craft seemed odd for a modern game, etc.

--fje

 

[takyris]

I think you can go with either, honestly. It depends on what you want to run, and it also depends on what your gaming group would be comfortable with.

For the campaign I am running -- a D&D-like historical fantasy setting -- I know for a fact that I'd be better off with Grim Tales. However, my players don't want to learn all the new rules, or trip over areas where they think they know the rules but don't. In particular, both spellcasting players really specifically said, "I just want to use D&D-like spellcasting," and as the GM, that left me in the position of either going with d20 Modern's spellcasting or forcing them to use Grim Tales.

I've ended up sticking with d20 Modern, because I can sneak in a few house rules and port over d20 Modern equipment, but I can't force everyone to buy a book, and we game over IRC channels, so I can't even just buy one or two and force them all to read up on side rules during the game. The basic classes are great in both games, and my players at least like the middle ground of Advanced Classes -- being able to have a slightly more focused role for the character by taking a class with a real description name if they want. (I personally could be happy either way -- I like generic customizeable classes, but I also understand wanting to identify your character by his classes.)

So I'd say it's one part "What game are you planning to run?" and one part "What are your players willing to learn?"

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

GT lets you do fantasy by breaking down alot of the D&D archetypal abilities and putting them into the form of talents, which I like alot ... but then Ben's personal biases leak through a little in places and a few of the abilities he wasn't fond of are sort of odd to get (like having to go Dedicated/Charismatic 3/3 to get Wild Empathy).

Nah, Wild Empathy was just a late addition-- I had it in, took it out during playtest discussions, and then put it back when a playtester pointed out to me that I'd forgotten to do so.

No bias; I just didn't pay enough attention to the requirements. You should be comfortable rolling back its requirements to 3rd level (same as any other "advanced" talent). Just find a spot to fit in a little better.

I certainly think that Wild Empathy has a better place in most of the kinds of games I'd use GT for than, say, Item Creation. I'd want Wild Empathy to run a Tarzan-like character, for example.

For some reason, we didn't really like the GT skill system very much. Though Wulf's said he doesn't really use it either.

I assume you mean Backgrounds, not Skills. You should edit that; otherwise I agree.

 

[ragboy]

The only resistance I've had to running GT are players that want D&D-like magic (as takryis said). As a toolkit, though, GT can't be beat. A true mathematical approach to weapon design, monster design, CR calc, etc. It puts all the control for the campaign in the GM's hands, including amount/style of magic, deadliness of certain rules (like the massive damage rule, etc). And expands the use of action points.

I didn't think I liked the skill system, since you basically play with the skills you started with (unless you take a feat), but I actually like it after playing it.

Heap: Why does starting with a Craft skill seem so odd? Even if it's Craft (Tiddlywinks), every adult can make *something*.

 

[BryonD]

Grim Tales has three big advantages:

1) It was able to look at D20 Modern and take the good and repair the less than good

2) It is open to the whole OGL universe and greatly benefits from the ability to build other quality third party stuff directly into the system. (not saying D20M isn't open, just that it doesn't take adavntage of other existing open stuff)

3) Ben Durbin


The magic system comments are valid if you are looking for higher magic. But I think that other magic approaches can be subsutituted.

 

[BryonD]

Heap: Why does starting with a Craft skill seem so odd? Even if it's Craft (Tiddlywinks), every adult can make *something*.

Heh, even with that, nothing says you have to put any ranks in it.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I didn't think I liked the skill system, since you basically play with the skills you started with (unless you take a feat), but I actually like it after playing it.

And let's not forget: d20 Modern/GT characters get a feat every other level. You have more than ample opportunity to pick up a new skill that you "need" in the course of character advancement. Nobody has less than 9 core skills at character creation-- that's a lot of skills.