D20 saturation at an end?

[Darrin Drader]

Most people I've played with are very leery of allowing any classes or feats that aren't from WotC into their D&D games.

That is one thing I find somewhat foolish, considering that a lot of the same people that are writing those rules for the small presses are the people who are also writing them for WotC. In addition to Serpent Kingdoms and the Book of Exalted Deeds, you'll also find my name on or in all but one of Bastion Press's Oathbound books. You'll find Jesse Decker's name on the cover of Green Ronin books as well as numerous WotC books. Same goes for Erik Mona. Then there are others who have become prominent in the D20 market who have crossed over to doing some freelance work for WotC, such as Wil Upchurch and Rodney Thompson.

I agree with Whisperfoot that more adventures would be nice. Actually, I'd like to see short adventures in particular, the sort of stuff I could easily use as filler in a campaign or to spark an idea for a longer quest of my own devising.

There is probably a market for a 3rd party publisher to do these, and some have, such as Necromancer Games. This is also an opportune time to plug my favorite gaming magazine - Dungeon, which does exactly what you describe here for the price of one meal at McDonalds every month.

I also agree that unusual campaign settings have a better chance to really catch on and make a difference for a company.... Sometimes if somebody sees something really different they might say "Wow, that's cool!" though, and i think that is the chance for the 3rd party publisher to break into the campaign setting market in a big way. Right now everything seems to be all about Eberron. If a 3rd party could get this kind of buzz going they'd stand to make a lot of money IMO.

The chances of getting the same kind of buzz going as there currently is for Eberron, for most companies, would require the support of a much larger financial backer just to handle the marketing, so its not going to happen any time soon. On the other hand, it is entirely possible for a small press to eventually achieve this through word of mouth. Of course that would require a few things - 1st: getting noticed. With the number of D20 releases hitting the shelves of the local game stores diminishing, there is now a greater chance that a single new product line might now get seen amid the crowd. 2nd: It needs to find a core group of players; people who actually spend their weekends playing in this setting rather than the other established settings. For people who are already happy with the setting they're playing in, this is a pretty tough sell. 3rd: It needs happy players who are willing to go out and evangelize the heck out of the product line. Considering that most gamer interraction happens around the gaming table or the store, it isn't always easy for the buzz about something to get through to a lot of people. Online messageboards like this one reach far fewer people than many here would like to believe.

Ultimately there are those that can overcome these obstacles. I have to give FFG credit for their success with Midnight. The same holds true for RPG Objects' Darwin's World, which is my favorite D20 post apocalyptic game currently on the market. At the end of the day though, if a new campaign setting is released that is standard fantasy fare, it is likely to be compared with the Forgotten Realms which has superb writing, excellent art, and a history that has existed for more than half of my life. There are always those who would rather compare it to Greyhawk, which has been around for almost as long as my entire lifetime, but the point is that it will never be a fair comparison and the new setting will eventually get disregarded by all but a small group of people who are extremely passionate about it. Its a losing battle, so in my humble opinion, unless you are working on FR or Greyhawk, you might as well be pushing the envelope to see what else you can do with the fantasy genre.

 

[Napftor]

...This is also an opportune time to plug my favorite gaming magazine - Dungeon, which does exactly what you describe here for the price of one meal at McDonalds every month...

Plus if you eat your Dungeon when finished with it, it's still healthier than eating that McDonalds meal.

 

[Greg K]

I'd rather have the McDonald's meal once per month.

 

[Sebastian Ashputtle]

Plus if you eat your Dungeon when finished with it, it's still healthier than eating that McDonalds meal.

Awesome!

 

[Ed Cha]

I think it would be great if WoTC picked up some of the better third party publishers into their distribution network. I find it very difficult to even get my books into stores because a lot of retailers seem to not take risks and rely on established lines instead of picking from newer companies. Also, most retailers do not re-order. If I could just get a couple of copies of my books into every store and have the retailers re-order when stock is depleted, I'm sure sales would be much better.

In addition, the average consumer just doesn't know how to look at books, in my opinion. That's why so many publishers are producing hardcover books with lots of white space and big print. Because they sell and they're profitable! I've been tempted to produce an adventure setting in a hardcover and name it something like "The Ultimate Fantasy City Design Guide", but I'm reluctant to do it. I just don't think it's right.

 

[Greg K]

I personally would rather see 3rd party companies tackle the subject matter that WOTC might eventually cover at some time rather than focus on adventures. Core DND and settng specific books aside-the latter which I don't buy based upon my lack of interest in the settings currently being supported- the only WotC book that I have found worth purchasing was Unearthed Arcana. Granted, there might be one or two items of interest in a particular WOTC rules supplement that I might find to be of interest, but I have not found one WOTC DND supplement, other than Unearthed Arcana, to contain with enough material that I liked to be worth my purchasing. In contrast, I tend to find more interesting and appealing material in both third party products and the websites of current and former WOTC designers. For example, I will take Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook over either of WOTC's Psionic Handbooks. Similiarly, I will take GR's Shaman over the the WOTC shaman found in the Complete Divine.
This is not to say that WOTC products are not well written. I just find that WOTC tries to cater to the majority of players whose likes and needs tend to differ from my own. On the hand, thirty party publishers and unofficial material found on WOTC designer websites often contain alternative approaches that WOTC cannot, did not, or will not take. It is these alternative approaches that I often find to be both useful and a source of inspiration for my campaign.

 

[Fearsome Monkey]

Paging David Hurd. Paging David Hurd. We have your new sig quote and the irony is delicious...

I've been paged? Wow, that is a good sig line. I, as one of the monkeygods, feel I should clear up a few minor points.

Frost & Fur was started long in advance of Frost Burn. I can still recall the wotc folks coming by and congratulating us on a good idea at a past gencon. We were just way too slow getting it done, and then redone for 3.5. By the time we heard about WOTC muscling in on the setting books it we had too much money tied up in the project to let it go. This certainly didn't help our prospects.

As Mr Creech pointed out, we are putting all our energy into the boardgames under the Face 2 Face Games imprint. He was wrong in one respect, it is not cheaper to produce boardgames - they are much more expensive. They do however make a profit. Boardgames, especially the good ones, sell for years rather than the months that most rpg suppliments remain viable. Never-the-less, I am going to miss working in this d20 industry.

 

[mythusmage]

I've been paged? Wow, that is a good sig line. I, as one of the monkeygods, feel I should clear up a few minor points.

(snip)

Dave, have you thought about getting another d20 publisher involved? Turn over what you have ready and licensing them to produce it.

Just a thought.

 

[Desdichado]

Is there some massive group of boardgame enthusiasts that I've never heard of? Do they have conventions, websites and message board where they chat about the new releases? I'ld never heard of Face 2 Face before this announcement and having looked at their website I can say I've never seen a single one of thier games in any shop.

Yeah, they do. My neightbor, who's also in my game group, is pretty big boardgames guy, and introduces us to all kinds of indie board games that are surprisingly well done, professional-looking and fun to play. As for their convention, you may have heard of a little thing called Origins, which is a huge deal for boardgames... among other things.

 

[Desdichado]

There is no D20 crisis, what we're seeing now is totally expected in any boom situation in a capitalist market. Its good, healthy, a culling of the herd.

Exactly. There's no announcement of folks like Green Ronin, or Malhavoc, for instance, getting out of d20. It's not like d20 is drying up. All it means is that some guys are realigning their business to be more profitable. Those guys who consistently put out high quality product, and are able to do so at a good cost, don't seem to be getting out the market anytime soon...