d20 Shadowrun conversions - would it be worth it?

[Dismas]

Why convert? Well I can think of a few reasons
1) You are stuck with a group that will only play d20 (apparently these exist )
2) As a mental exercise.

either way I would approach it as a treatment, rather than a straight conversion.

Here are a few Ideas.

Take d20 Modern base.

--Combat--
Use the injury rules from Unearthed Arcana. These are pretty much the same rules as the damage save rules from Mutants and Masterminds. Also use the Armour as DR rules.

Hand grenades going off in peoples hands always result in death in my campaign, it is in the rules (Rule 0).

--Cyberwear--
d20 Future has a foundation set of rules for cyberwear.

--Riggers--
There is the VRNet web enhancements. Haven't read it through properly yet though and it is not OGC.

--Magic--
There is more to the d20 magic system than Vancian. A variation on the Incantation system from UA or UA (Urban Arcana or Unearthed Arcana). Maybe an attribute damage system ala d20 CoC.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Even after my failed attempt, I still maintain one is possible, but it's not worth doing, IMHO. I do think something like the Storyteller system, or Mutants and Masterminds, might actually be a better fit.

 

[coyote6]

So my big point is - do you personally think that SR would be well-served by a professionally done d20/OGL conversion? Or even a well-done GURPS conversion?

I don't know if SR itself would be well-served, but I wouldn't mind a GURPS or d20 version.

I'd probably prefer GURPS over a standard d20 conversion, largely because I don't think the things associated with levels (e.g., ever increasing hp, limited skill points, etc.) would work for me, for SR. A d20 conversion that departed from some norms could work, though.

I do think it would be difficult to really capture the flavor or SR, in some ways. Specifically, the peculiar metaphysics of SR -- I think any successful adaptation would have to retain SR's metaphysics, and that means all the stuff about mana bolts vs. power bolts, the difficulty of affecting tech with magic, initiates being more powerful, etc.

The other thing that would be tough to do is speed -- in SR, speed is king. Wired reflexes (or some magical or biological variation thereof) is really, really useful. Now, I wouldn't mind seeing it toned down some (it would be nice if Joe Normal was just a little more useful & survivable in a fight), so a straight "Wired reflexes gives Accelerated Time Rate/extra partial actions" would be overkill (shades of SR 1e, where one wired guy could kill whole squads before the normals got to react); but the wires should still be really useful somehow.

All that's a pretty tough balancing act, without making some hefty changes to GURPS or d20.

Now, doing a SR-ish game with d20 or GURPS, but with different metaphysics, would be much easier. Not the same, though, IMO.

(And GURPS is easy to tweak into cinematic-ness; you just have to avoid getting hit or seriously hurt. Ergo, let people do things (spend FP, character points, or some kind of hero/action/karma points) to boost Dodge and reduce damage (Only a Flesh Wound!) IMO.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am not sure if a D20 version would be the best way, but the d6 version is flawed.
Many of these flaws are because some of the designer often seem incapable of seeing how the rules can interact with each other and unbalance certain aspects.

But one major flaw is the d6 mechanic.
I liked the base idea - using number of successes to determine the effect of a task, and having a variable DC. But actually, the variation you can make on a d6 isn´t that great - a modifier of +2 can make a task from simply done to impossible. This does also result in increasing the lethality, sure (if you have a moderate wound, you can go home...).
From a d20 perspective, the smartgun is to a street samurai as a +5 enhancement bonus to a fighter.

Combats in d6 are extremely long. You roll an attack, the defender rolls his dodge roll, you determine success, the defender makes his constitution roll.
And if you use all of the combat modifiers (which is appearently expected from a reasonably intelligent, er dedicated Shadowrun player), you have to consult a few tables before even announcing the DC. (And you will be surprised how high it will be if you use all the modifiers!)

Spellcasting in d6 is one of the hardest thing to apply to D20 Modern.
But I don´t think the d6 rules are really balanced here. The few spells that are essential to a deadly wizard can be acquired at the beginning. Drain will never become a real problem, especially if you add in some bioware equipment (trauma dampener would be the wet dream of every spellcaster, if it wouldn´t already exist ).

Another problem is character development.
It will take a long time to advance a skill, learn a new spell or improve an ability score.
But on the other hand, most runs will get you so much money that you can easily improve yourself by buying armor, cyberware, vehicles or weapons.
(And this is the point where it suddenly sucks to play a spellcaster - you will take forever to improve your abilities, because every improvement requires money AND karma).

The designers seem to have encounted the same problems as we (we as in our group or we as in all Shadowrun players around the world ) do, and are then creating new equipment/rules to work against it.
Damage Compensators to avoid damage modifiers, talent softs to avoid slow skill advancement, Anti Vehicle ammunition to fight against the overarmored rigger drones. Unfortunately, most of these changes are flawed - they don´t fix the problem, they make other abilities worthless (why learn a skill? get skillwires on level 8, and than shop for the skills you need), or are very unreasonable ("Wow, this cool antivehicle ammunition halves the effective armor rating and negates the damage penalty? It must be overkill to shoot at unarmored people with it." - "Nope. Same effect..).

There are even other, minor flaws in the system (but shed a bad light on the game designers):
People in Shadowrun have a reasonable chance to die from a fall from 2m, and are probably severely injured after it. (3 consitutition die against 2T damage?)
The security distance from exploding antitank missile varies between 2 to 4 meters...
Some Antiaircraft missiles deal more damage if the target is in air...
Shotguns are the ultimate weapons of destruction...

(Hmm. My hat of 6d know no limit? )

But back to a conversion:
I think you can easily increase the lethality of D20 Modern - the Massive Damage Threshold is the only tool you need. Set it at a static 10, and add one at 20 with a higher fortitude save to resist, and D20 Modern is extremely lethal ...

I think the main question is not if the Shadowrun rules are bad, the main question is how to improve them - a d20 conversion isn´t probably the easiest or best route, but I think it is a viable one.

 

[Dalamar]

--Combat--
Use the injury rules from Unearthed Arcana. These are pretty much the same rules as the damage save rules from Mutants and Masterminds. Also use the Armour as DR rules.

This is what I'd go for, too. Except that I'd separate the Injury save from Fortitude save, and tie it to the hit die size the class had. Then I'd say that for every -x (depending on how much I'd like for the injuries to degrade a character, most likely using a different figure for Lethal and Nonlethal injuries) you have on injury saves, you take a -1 to all attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks.

--Magic--
There is more to the d20 magic system than Vancian. A variation on the Incantation system from UA or UA (Urban Arcana or Unearthed Arcana). Maybe an attribute damage system ala d20 CoC.

I'd go for a variation of the magic system presented in Slayers d20 (in which you have to make a Fort save to succeed in casting a spell. If you don't succeed you make caster level check to get the spell off and receive even more nonlethal damage from the spell and might become fatigued), either giving all classes a 'Mana save" progression, or just using a character's Will save.

So I think it could be done. And if it was done properly, I'd at least give it a try. I might just try and see if I could make such a thing, if I happen to have some time off.

 

[Thanee]

Well, if you were to do a d20 shadowrun conversion (a horrible thought for me ), you'd have to do some quite drastic changes to the system (throw out hit points, throw out levels (or make them highly generic), make classes much less restrictive (or throw out classes completely), completely new magic system, a new stat for essence at least, and so on), I think. It's not like there havn't been other d20 systems, that did some of that before, but I don't think I would want such a game for myself, tho I can see how some people don't like the shadowrun mechanics, they used some rather weird concepts (but pretty unique when they first came out) there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Longshadow]

The one thing i think your wrong about is that lethal = good.

If it's lethality for lethality's own sake, I would agree that the status is wrong. However, in a gritty setting, players who are actually afraid to walk into gunfire because they know the result would be very bad is a good thing. As written, even with MDT, I have yet to see that happen in d20. Hence my tongue-in-cheek comments about the 50 cal crit and palming the grenade.

Even the simple act of discharging a gun is hazardous for your health (throwing all ones while shooting actually killed a character)

Whoa. I have a reputation as being an Evil Bastard of a GM, but even I've never enforced The Rule of One to that extent. Wow.

Combats in d6 are extremely long.

Depends on who's playing and who's running. SR combat flies for me and my guys. Conversely, I've seen d20 combat crawl because of all the interminable addition of options, thirty-eleven different feats in play, AoOs abounding, etc.

6 of one, Half-dozen of another. This is why we have "YMMV," of course.

I think you can easily increase the lethality of D20 Modern - the Massive Damage Threshold is the only tool you need. Set it at a static 10, and add one at 20 with a higher fortitude save to resist, and D20 Modern is extremely lethal ...

Even at 10, my grenade example wouldn't trigger an MDT check(2d6 damage for a grenade -- yeah, right, whatever). And a decent level character with a good CON (especially say, oh, a Troll) simply isn't going to fail that Fort save. Maybe my perspective is a little harsh, but a 50 cal round (especially with a crit or maxed damage) should drop an unarmored person, period. The mechanics don't support that assumption, and according to interviews with the designers, were never intended to do so.

(And GURPS is easy to tweak into cinematic-ness; you just have to avoid getting hit or seriously hurt. Ergo, let people do things (spend FP, character points, or some kind of hero/action/karma points) to boost Dodge and reduce damage (Only a Flesh Wound!) IMO.)

I'll take your word for it. I refuse to use that set of mechanics even enough to try that suggestion.

--Combat--
Use the injury rules from Unearthed Arcana. These are pretty much the same rules as the damage save rules from Mutants and Masterminds. Also use the Armour as DR rules.

In general, I like the damage save option (liked M&M in general enough to have written a book for the system) -- I certainly like it far better than hit points. Don't know if the numerical range on the saves supports a gritty style well, though, despite comments to the contrary on the M&M boards. I'd have to run using that mechanic in that way in that setting before I could judge one way or the other.

Hand grenades going off in peoples hands always result in death in my campaign, it is in the rules (Rule 0).

Heh. But, that's GM fiat -- which would drive a number of player's nuts. I don't disagree with the spirit of it -- but enumerated and detailed mechanics are generally a better way to forestall argument.

--Cyberwear--
d20 Future has a foundation set of rules for cyberwear.

The limiting factor linked to CON instead of a standard number is just so much twinkie bait though, IMO.

--Magic--
There is more to the d20 magic system than Vancian. A variation on the Incantation system from UA or UA (Urban Arcana or Unearthed Arcana). Maybe an attribute damage system ala d20 CoC.

Can't say I remember the Incantation system that well, so I can't really comment on it. Attribute damage ala CoC is a character killer in the SR world -- your mages would only get in a handful of shots at best before being rendered pretty much useless. Good for balance, I suppose, but doesn't emulate the setting.





I think at this point, I'm pretty much going to remove myself from the debate. My opinion is pretty well set, and nothing anyone has said here (though some people have made some pretty cogent arguments) has swayed me in the slightest. That being said, my continued naysaying wouldn't really be constructive to the thread. I like SR's mechanics, they work for me, and they fit my idea of the setting. IMHO, D20 doesn't. End of discussion.

Ultimately, my metric for how much I want to use and play a system comes in two parts: (1) Does the system itself work for or against my suspension of disbelief and immersion in the game as a story. There are systems that meet that standard for me, and d20 simply isn't one of them. I play d20 frequently, but generally because its what my circle of friends run (with me running a lot of the non-d20 stuff). I don't run it unless forced, as a rule. I can never muster the enthusiasm for it above that of a board game (the exception being Mutants and Masterminds -- but that's pretty far removed from standard d20). Everytime I try, the mechanics grind my suspension to a shuddering halt. (2) Do I need an extravagant number of house rules to make the system as a system palatable for me? I've never needed more than 1/2 a page of house rules for the SR rules set (since 3rd ed anyway -- earlier editions called for a little more), and that's mostly to hit really little details. The last time I was cajoled into running standard d20, my house rules weighed in at 15-20 pages. Including some fundamental tweaks. Reviewing them I decided, "Umm..just pick another game guys. Really." :\

With the above in mind, a conversion holds no value or appeal for me. Enjoy the rest of the discussion, guys.

Oh, and good luck anyway, dropshadow.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Shadowrun Alternity

The more I look at a Shadowrun d20 conversion the more I think that Alternity would be better suited as the game to convert Shadowrun to. With the Player's Handbook and Dataware you have more than you will ever need to set up the matrix. With the Gamemaster's Guide, Dark Matter, and Beyond Science you have all the FX you need for Hermetics, Shamans, and Physical Adepts. The weren could be tweaked into a troll very easily and there are already guidelines in the Gamemaster's guide for converting over AD&D characters which could be tweaked for 3 or 3.5e.

If anything I would try to convert Shadowrun to Alternity and then use it as a bridge to convert to d20 since Alternity lives in the shadow between class based games and skill based games.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

IMO, the biggest problem with trying to "convert" Shadowrun to d20 is beginning with the assumption that Shadowrun's rules need to be accurately represented by its d20 incarnation.

Better, I think, to start from scratch (with d20 Modern or Grim Tales) and a no-magic base. Modify to taste. The grim-n'-gritty "10 second lifespan" nature of Shadowrun as-is doesn't appeal to some, it does to others.

Then add the races in d20 form.

Then add the main archtypes in d20 advanced class form (or, talent trees for the multiclass/prestige class-phobic :\ )

Then add the cyberware, using either d20 Future, OGL Cybernet, that old, discontinued free d20 cybers PDF, or new cybernetics rules.

Then add the magic, either from scratch or using an appropriate (presumably non-Vancian) spellcasting system. d20 CoC, Grim Tales, whatever floats your boat.

Then convert (yes, actually convert) the monsters to d20 form.

And you already have the flavor and the setting.

(Obviously, people who don't like the d20 system and do like the Shadowrun system won't be interested; a conversion's not for them, it's for those who like/would like if they new about the setting but dislike/don't know the existing rules )

 

[Runesong42]

GURPS, IMO, only handles well a very limited, mundane, and not-at-all-cinematic game. D20, IMO, only handles well and over the top video-game-on-paper feel at best or a wargamer-only-crunchy-crunch-need-apply heavy-handed balance and accounting fixation at worst (boy, is that gonna attract flames no matter how else I could have phrased it). I won't delve too much into GURPS specifics (I avoid GURPS, playing or running, and only have some of the books for source mateial -- which the line is always good for ).

Re: GURPS - I agree with you in that GURPS is a gritty, ultra-realistic, poke-you-with-a-sword-and-you-die-type game. However, like all games, GURPS can be tweaked to become very cinematic in very few steps. By contrast, D20 is the exact opposite, and can be changed in a smiliar manner. Personally, I would LOVE to see a GURPS conversion to D20, as, IMO, GURPS has the best character creation concept I've ever seen.

Just for discussion, I came up with an alternate rule for D20 modern that makes for a gritty game while still being relatively bleak, taken rigt ftom the GURPS pages. Your CON score = HP. Period. You can level up to high heaven, and get all sorts of funky abilities... but you're going to end up with the same amount of low HP unless you up your CON (or get +CON items ). You might also consider running an alternate rule for armor as DR. Paf. You're almost Shadow-run-esque.

PS I'm 110% in aggrement re: GURPS as excellent source material. You won't find a richer or more throughly researched material, no matter the genre.

--Magic--
Even with the logic tweaks d20 added to the old D&D magic system, it still shows it's Vancian roots. In the SR setting, a powerful enough will in a mage allows him to cast spell after spell over and over (though spell selection is considerably more limited). When he finally gimps out, he's gonna collapse, not just pull out a weapon, apologize to his friends for running out of spells, and begin blasting away without penalty. Several new subsystem add-ons would be required in the d20 magic system to emulate that.

Make a mana rule as well - your MANA = your INT. Same deal, except use the same "pool" for all your spells, like psionics. Voila. Low-level spells being hucked around a lot, and throw in fatigue rules to keep them thinking.

Of course, this all looks good on paper...