D20 taking over?

[hong]

I am puzzled as to why people think that d20 will not make a good supers game given the inherent suckitude of every supers game out there now. Can d20 do any worse than the mess Champions was/is?

1 theory is that it's the product of the current rulesets that are available for supers.

Many of these rulesets tend to be built around the "gearhead" approach of using a toolbox of components to build a character's powers. Naturally enough, a ruleset catering for gearheads will attract gearhead players. These players will also not like other rulesets that don't cater so well to their particular tastes. D&D/d20 is one of these, having intrinsic features (like a class/level system) that go against everything that gearheads hold dear.

Meanwhile, other players who may not be dedicated gearheads will be discouraged from playing supers games. Because of their lack of interest in the genre, they will also be unlikely to take part in a debate about what rulesets could be used in that genre. Hence the only voices to be heard will be those of the gearheads, who (naturally enough) think that only gearhead rulesets can properly capture the texture and substance of their beloved game.

Note that "gearhead" is not being used here in a derogatory sense. I can't think of another term that fits quite as well, though.

 

[Black Omega]

1 theory is that it's the product of the current rulesets that are available for supers.

Many of these rulesets tend to be built around the "gearhead" approach of using a toolbox of components to build a character's powers. Naturally enough, a ruleset catering for gearheads will attract gearhead players. These players will also not like other rulesets that don't cater so well to their particular tastes. D&D/d20 is one of these, having intrinsic features (like a class/level system) that go against everything that gearheads hold dear.

Meanwhile, other players who may not be dedicated gearheads will be discouraged from playing supers games. Because of their lack of interest in the genre, they will also be unlikely to take part in a debate about what rulesets could be used in that genre. Hence the only voices to be heard will be those of the gearheads, who (naturally enough) think that only gearhead rulesets can properly capture the texture and substance of their beloved game.

Note that "gearhead" is not being used here in a derogatory sense. I can't think of another term that fits quite as well, though.

For the record, I have no idea how good of a Superhero game d20 can make. It might do just fine. Personally I like d20 for some fantasy. But given that I've yet to find a workable martial arts system for d20, I'm not assuming d20 Superheros must work either. d20 CoC looks really cool. Spycraft was very disappointing. It's certainly possible someone will put out a fantastic d20 superhero game. But unless it's better than 5th Edition Champions, I doubt I'd use it.

 

[hong]

But unless it's better than 5th Edition Champions, I doubt I'd use it.

Q.E.D.

 

[Black Omega]

I am puzzled as to why people think that d20 will not make a good supers game given the inherent suckitude of every supers game out there now. Can d20 do any worse than the mess Champions was/is?

Sure, easily. And it's 'is'. Hero System 5th Edition is in stores now and selling very well. d20 might very well turn out great Superhero games. But I'll be very impressed indeed if they manage anything better than Champions. I suspect this is simply a YMMV thing, since you gave no reasons why Champions 'sucks'.

 

[Psion]

d20 might very well turn out great Superhero games. But I'll be very impressed indeed if they manage anything better than Champions.

The rub is that "better" is very subjective.

I would be surprised if they make something more flexible than Champions.

I would not be surprised at all if they make someting more accessible than Champions.

 

[Wild Karrde]

I can (and BTW, DO) say "no evil characters, no nostandard races or classes without my prior approval," and I will be pretty safe. OTOH, with a free-form point based system, I find that I have to handhold players through chargen to make sure they don't do anything contradictory or illogical. Any time that the GM can spend worrying about the progress of the game instead of worrying about handholding the players is time well spent.

Soudns like a problem with the people you play with then a problem of the system. I can't see why one would try to something "contradictory or illogical" in one game and not in another. Point buy does promote min/max but not illogical or bad charcater design. I usually find quite the opposite that it promotes excellent character design because you have to put more time into your character. And the players seem to care more about there characters then the ones they randomly rolled stats for.

You can be sarchastic all you like. You will still be wrong.

I have a masters in electrical engineering. I am in no danger of not having the required skills to handle HERO. That said, I realize that not all people have my level of mathematical acumen. There are people for whom math is like work, and they cannot do figures like 50 times 1.75 in their head. And some of those people are worth playing with. I think you are remiss to pass judgement on them because of it.

Get some perspective. You may be comfortable with the math, but you don't game alone.

I'm happy for you and your masters but my main point still stands. It's not difficult math and this seems to be what drives a lot of players away from the game. People shouting you have to have an advanced PHD and work for NASA to play the game and people won't even try it out due to hearsay. And just so you know I can't do the 50 times 1.75 in my head fast either. I use a calculator. And the onlt time a number like that is an issue is during character creation. It can come up in the game if you use a variable power pool so you simply don't allow it unless the player can run it efficiently.

As to my comment about the supers I guess that if you're telling me the only thing that would be carried over into a d20 game is the use of the d20 dice then sure I guess it's possible to make a decent supers game. In my mind though d20 involves the use of class, levels, hp and 6 stats. So like someone else said, if you throw all that out the window is it still called a d20 game?

 

[ckirby]

Achtung!

While, from a marketing perspective, it is a grand idea to get everyone in one boat (especially if your WoTC and you're selling the tickets) it does, however, limit the originality of each game.

As stated earlier, some games have specific game play models that fit the mood and strengthen the game plot. You can't have that if you force every game to fit in a very tight mold.

Then again, who's to say you can't create additional rules in the D20 system?

It is, after all, a game of fantasy, played in the mind. As soon as you start saying "Oh, I can't do that", you've lost your marbles. It's a game of the imagination...start using yours and you'll find that game rules are meant to be used as needed and feel free to invent that which would help!

WoTC has grabbed the market, and being the biggest kid on the block, is now calling the shots. By "licensing" a system (such baloney, by the way), it can now control it's competitors.

Smart...very smart.

 

[Davelozzi]

This has been a very interesting discussion all around. One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that, as always, this poll is reflective of the biases of this board. EN World is basically a D&D/d20 fan's board. I bet if this same poll was posted on rpg.net or one of the other boards, the results would be very different.

People shouting you have to have an advanced PHD and work for NASA to play the game and people won't even try it out due to hearsay. And just so you know I can't do the 50 times 1.75 in my head fast either. I use a calculator. And the onlt time a number like that is an issue is during character creation. It can come up in the game if you use a variable power pool so you simply don't allow it unless the player can run it efficiently.

If a game's rules are so complex enough that you need to disallow using certain chunks of them in play to most players, how can that not be a drawback?

 

[Psion]

Soudns like a problem with the people you play with then a problem of the system.

I've played in 4 states with multiple groups in each state. I don't think there is anything especially unique about the people I play with. But yes, that is a typical retort to the criticism, and it doesn't fly. It is silly to try to fit the people to the game instead of fitting the game to the way people play.

I can't see why one would try to something "contradictory or illogical" in one game and not in another.

Quite simple, really: becasue the game encourages it. In GURPS, pumping up either dex or int, and then hanging dozens of 1/2 point skills off of it is very convenient. And you don't have to be a munchkin or, as you say, problem player, to fall into this trap. With a system like this, it becomes very easy to justify skills to yourself. Path of least resistance and all.

But with some pre-defined common roles, your character is far more likely to have a skills set that makes sense together.

Now I am not saying all players do this (not a minority of gaming lepers as you would have it either, though). Some players know enough to design a character around the concept and avoid the pratfalls of over-justification. But the thing is, those well made characters tend to fall into patterns that look a lot like classes.

Point buy does promote min/max but not illogical or bad charcater design.

They are one and the same. Min/max wouldn't be bad, IMO, if the results made sense.

I usually find quite the opposite that it promotes excellent character design because you have to put more time into your character.

You put more time into your character because it consumes more time in ultimately niggly decision making. There is a balance to be struck between detail and playability, but I think GURPS lies at an extreme.

And the players seem to care more about there characters then the ones they randomly rolled stats for.

Do they "care about the characters"? Or do they just not want to go throguh another round of niggly decision making?

I'm happy for you and your masters but my main point still stands. It's not difficult math and this seems to be what drives a lot of players away from the game.

You say right there that it drives a lot of people from the game. You can pass judgement on them all you want, the simple fact remains that a lot of people find math too much like work and don't find it a pleasant gaming experience.

As to my comment about the supers I guess that if you're telling me the only thing that would be carried over into a d20 game is the use of the d20 dice then sure I guess it's possible to make a decent supers game. In my mind though d20 involves the use of class, levels, hp and 6 stats. So like someone else said, if you throw all that out the window is it still called a d20 game?

The rub is, I don't think you have to dispense with any of that to have a decent supers game. And you have done nothing to demonstrate why classes, levels, hp, and 6 stats doesn't work for supers.

 

[DMaple]

I've become a pretty big fan of the unification of system and hope it spreads. I collect and play a lot of different game systems but none of them offer the support that d20 does.

1) How many game systems give you naval rules let alone 3 options to choose from?
2) Mass combat rules?
3) Two sets of starship combat rules?
4) Hundreds of pre-designed monsters?
5) Over a hundred pre-designed NPCs?
6) Scores if not over a hundred pre-designed scenarios?
7) 4+ different magic systems?
8) A fairly developed set of Chase rules?
9) An ever-expanding variety of genres and campaign settings?

This isn't unification, 2 sets of space combat rules already and more on the way, 3 sets of navel combat rules. Hundreds of monster some introducing there own special rules, hundreds of NPC's with individual prestige class and more special rules. 4 different magic systems all with there own rules. Chase rules....

Rules, rules and more rules half of which cover stuff that has already been covered. D20 is introducing a whole new genre of gaming "ruleplaying".

"Keep it core" that's my motto.