Dangerous Jouneys

[jdrakeh]

You have it backwards. Dangerous Journeys (originally called Dangerous Dimensions) was the game system, Mythus was the fantasy campaign setting and was supposed to be followed up by Unhallowed which was going to be a modern supernatural horror setting.

My bad. That said, it's kind of a moot point, as Dangerous Journeys and Mythus ended up being eternally linked in the annals of gaming history due to the failure of subsequent genre sourcebooks to appear. That is, DJ may have been intended to serve as a multi-genre system, but it never did (its entire published product line consists entirely of Mythus products and nothing else).

 

[Obryn]

BTW, we gave up Dangerous Journeys when we discovered Earthdawn. It was a middle ground between the genericness of 2E D&D and the uber crunch of DJ. We played that for almost 4 years.

Hah! Us, too. Mythus was right between 2e and Earthdawn in our fantasy game progression.

I disagree. Full Practitioners had a lot of spells, about twice as many as a standard spellcaster. But they were by no means invulnerable. Ditto 7th Son of a 7th Son. It took a bit more imagination on the part of the GM, and it was a simple thing to remove them without the slightest hiccup in the game.

Not having played the game in over a decade, and being in San Jose while my books are home in Illinois, I'll take your word for it. I seem to remember full practitioner being a lot more significant, though - maybe it was number of heka points, maybe it was in casting speed - I dunno.

And yeah, while you can always chuck out the Seventh Son and Full Practitioner rules, my fundamental objection to both is that it's one extra die roll that creates two or more separate tiers of characters, overshadowing any randomness of statistics and/or HPs. It's like adding a table to D&D which says...

00-90: You're normal! Boo hoo!
91-95: U R KEWL! +2 to a stat.
96-98: U R AWSOM! +2 to 2 stats, +1 HP/level
99: WOW! +2 to 3 stats, +2 HP/level, start at 2nd level
00: Demigod in training! +2 to 4 stats, start at 3rd level!

I mean, the importance of this table would pretty much exceed any other roll in character creation. It's an added degree of major randomness that just widens the gulf between otherwise baseline characters. Making things worse, IIRC the Full Practitioner roll was based on your existing stats, so characters who were already powerful had a better chance to get kicked up a few notches.

I know it's a very Gygaxian/oldschool mechanic (see also Psionics in 1e) but while it seemed cool back then, it seems much less fine in retrospect.

Again, disagree. Joss Factors and Heka Points were very flavorful (and are no more arbitrary than Hero Points or Magic/Power/Spell Points).

No, I had no argument with their purpose in the game. I love luck points, and magic points can work if done well. I just think the names are silly. Heka darts!

But regardless, I think DJ is a beast of a misunderstood game. I never found it more complicated than GURPS, and always get a chuckle at how much spite and vitriol it gets from people who have never played it. Some played it and didn't care for it (nothing new there, look at some of the edition wars threads around here), others of us did. DJ is the game that really opened my eyes to the scope that a fantasy game could have, and it has influenced my homebrew world settings ever sense.

Quite the opposite, here. I don't have any vitriol for it. It's a game, though, that I think will always be in my past. My campaign is fondly-remembered by all my players, and we still reminisce about it sometimes. It may not have been more complicated than, for instance, Rolemaster - but that's still many levels of complexity above where I want to be nowadays. (And really - it still has an entire, big book, in small font, that's nothing but spell lists. )

-O

 

[BluSponge]

Not having played the game in over a decade, and being in San Jose while my books are home in Illinois, I'll take your word for it. I seem to remember full practitioner being a lot more significant, though - maybe it was number of heka points, maybe it was in casting speed - I dunno.

They had more heka points and spells at their disposal. But I don't believe they had faster casting times. Furthermore, the roll was something like 10% of your Dweomercraft or Priestcraft K/S, and only those characters who focused on that qualified. Meanwhile, the various fighter types were no slouches.

And yeah, while you can always chuck out the Seventh Son and Full Practitioner rules, my fundamental objection to both is that it's one extra die roll that creates two or more separate tiers of characters, overshadowing any randomness of statistics and/or HPs.

Not really, seeing as these WE'RE completely random, and not very likely at that. I didn't see many full practitioners rolled up, and never saw a 7th son (BTW, there were several variations of 7th sons, but only a 1% chance at 7th Son of a 7th Son. Statistically, it wasn't enough to affect the game in a meaningful sense. And while they did have extra umph, I don't recall it being THAT much of a burden to game balance.)

It's like adding a table to D&D which says...

00-90: You're normal! Boo hoo!
91-95: U R KEWL! +2 to a stat.
96-98: U R AWSOM! +2 to 2 stats, +1 HP/level
99: WOW! +2 to 3 stats, +2 HP/level, start at 2nd level
00: Demigod in training! +2 to 4 stats, start at 3rd level!

Kinda like the Exceptional Strength rules in AD&D. Did you roll 3 sixes for Strength? Good for you! Now roll percentile. What?! An 01? Well at least you tried.

I mean, the importance of this table would pretty much exceed any other roll in character creation. It's an added degree of major randomness that just widens the gulf between otherwise baseline characters. Making things worse, IIRC the Full Practitioner roll was based on your existing stats, so characters who were already powerful had a better chance to get kicked up a few notches.

Yes, you rolled 10% or less of your starting Priestcraft or Dweomercraft K/S, IIRC, so usually you needed to roll an 8 or less on percentile dice, as that was the high end of starting magical stats. But Mythus characters had plenty of opportunities to shine: rolling birth rank, socio-economic class, etc. And let's not forget that most characters started fairly well rounded in skills (usually 15-20 skills, depending on the vocation chosen).

No, I had no argument with their purpose in the game. I love luck points, and magic points can work if done well. I just think the names are silly. Heka darts!

Magic Missile. Big deal. The word Heka was built into the setting. It sort of gave the whole thing more oomph than "magic(k)". I think the bigger problem, as a GM, was knowing what those spells you selected for your NPCs did.

Oh, and how great were the spell categories? Cantrip, Formula, Ritual, all tied to the spell's casting time. Fantastic idea, and one of the little gems I really loved about the game.

It may not have been more complicated than, for instance, Rolemaster - but that's still many levels of complexity above where I want to be nowadays. (And really - it still has an entire, big book, in small font, that's nothing but spell lists. )

True, nor do I (though I would play it in a heartbeat -- and might even run it if my players really wanted me too, I suppose). Lejendary Adventure brought with it some of the best ideas and dropped a lot of the chaff. Like you, I wasn't particularly fond of rolling up 18 attributes (which I dropped for the main three in my Mythus brew with nary a problem).

And I how many DnD books have we seen that are nothing more than big books of spells with little fonts now? I don't see many people complaining about them. Thus, I maintain that Mythus was a fine game marred by poor editing, bad production decisions, and not a little help from TSR.

Tom

 

[Obryn]

Meanwhile, the various fighter types were no slouches.

No, that's also true. I think the barbarian in my campaign was the most broken of all. IIRC, there's some threshhold where - if you get above a certain skill number - you get insanely powerful. Like I said, foggy memories, ill-remembered.

Kinda like the Exceptional Strength rules in AD&D. Did you roll 3 sixes for Strength? Good for you! Now roll percentile. What?! An 01? Well at least you tried.

Yep, exactly like that. The 18 was nice, but the percentile was all-important.

Oh, and how great were the spell categories? Cantrip, Formula, Ritual, all tied to the spell's casting time. Fantastic idea, and one of the little gems I really loved about the game.

It was a cool idea, but I seem to remember having some issues with long casting times for spells compared to the length of combats, but again - I only faintly remember this stuff now.

And I how many DnD books have we seen that are nothing more than big books of spells with little fonts now? I don't see many people complaining about them.

Oh, I complain about them, too! But those are completely optional - they're supplements. Mythus Magick contained all the default spells, though - and that's slightly different. A DM couldn't exclude it unless he excluded spellcasting itself.

The number of spellcasting classes was a little insane, too.

-O

 

[RFisher]

Yes. I played a few sessions of it when it first came out [...]

My main group was like "eewwww" and didn't like the rules AT ALL.

That pretty much captures my experience with the game.

The most infuriating thing was the excessive re-naming of standard RPG conventions (e.g., player character become "Heroic Personae," classes become "Vocations," skills become "Knowledge/Skill Areas," etc. Normally, flowery description doesn't bother me in RPG books, but when you're re-inventing the wheel merely to sound clever, it drives me nuts.

Yep. At the time I excused it on the basis that Gygax was just following his lawyers’ advice. Once I saw LA, though, I knew at least part of it was just a Gygax idiosyncrasy.

I have to admit, though, that I have some tendency for this myself, though DJ and LA have convinced me to fight it.

I have to confess that I liked B.U.C. though. ^_^

Whenever I hear someone talk about how much Gygax loved simple, rules-light games, I always think, "Well then what the hell was he thinking when he wrote Mythus?!"

You know how you find out what you like? By trying everything and discovering what you don’t like. It was the journey through AD&D and DJ that brought Gary back to oD&D (sans supplements even), C&C, and LA.

Although, he also always asserted that DJ was meant to be modular in a way that you could use or ignore as much depth as you wished. (One day maybe I’ll acquire Mythus Prime and see if that’s true.)

 

[jdrakeh]

On a related note, I'm tempted to go snap up the copy of Aerth that I saw at the used bookstore last week.

 

[Ahglock]

Not having played the game in over a decade, and being in San Jose while my books are home in Illinois, I'll take your word for it. I seem to remember full practitioner being a lot more significant, though - maybe it was number of heka points, maybe it was in casting speed - I dunno.


-O

I believe things in your specialty could cast at one difficulty class less if you were a full practitioner. That in effect would translate to faster cast times.

Thing is while that made him a powerful caster in many ways this game was a much more balanced magic system. A lot of the spells had you casting for like 5 rounds before the spell went off.

While the character creation system was complex, I loved it for the ability to make almost any character. While there were still classes to pick they gave you a framework and the you could pick X number more skills that are int based, X more that are spirit based, and X more that are physical. You could easily make a thief who practiced dark magic, or a mage who was a talented sowrdsman etc. You would start off better in things form your class but you oculd improve your extra skills as much as you wanted.

It had some great ideas, it just failed a bit on the implimentation level a bit. I had fun running it and playing it but I don't think I still would today, though I still enjoy reading the books and coming up with characters from it. As long and complex as character creation was, i loved every second of it and still do.

 

[lkj]

Yeah... I think pretty much the same thing... "Simple? Dude DJ had like 5 solid pages to it's character sheet!"

For the record, Gary mentioned more than once in his FAQ threads that he went 'rules-lite' after DJ. I got the impression that he, in the end, decided it was too complicated as well. In fact I think it was developing the very complex system that made him go way the other way.

I think the Lenjendary Adventures line is his rules-lite system.

AD

 

[mkarol]

...

No, I had no argument with their purpose in the game. I love luck points, and magic points can work if done well. I just think the names are silly. Heka darts!

...

-O

I miss Heka Darts. I miss summoning celestial eagles. I miss entire game sessions with your brother in a coma. DJ was a great game for hyper technical rule lawyers who could spend 8 hours a day considering and planning their adventure. It is not playabe in a real world setting.

 

[Obryn]

I miss Heka Darts. I miss summoning celestial eagles. I miss entire game sessions with your brother in a coma. DJ was a great game for hyper technical rule lawyers who could spend 8 hours a day considering and planning their adventure. It is not playabe in a real world setting.

I was hoping you'd drop by!

Everyone, this was my Full Practitioner.

-O