Daring Outlaw...A Too Powerful?

[Enforcer]

I would really like to see this build. And as I'm not very familiar with the optimizing thing, I'd love to know what makes that level progression so nice.

See the build (not 100% on it yet) in the stat block below.

[sblock]
Human Rogue 20/Swashbuckler 4

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10 (32 pts., all stat bumps to Dex)

1st (Rogue 1): Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding; Dodge, Mobility

2nd (Swashbuckler 1): Weapon Finesse

3rd (Swashbuckler 2): Grace +1; Quick Draw

4th (Swashbuckler 3): Insightful Strike

5th (Fighter 1): Combat Expertise

6th (Rogue 2): Evasion, Dodge Bonus +1; Improved Feint

7th (Rogue 3): Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1

8th (Rogue 4): Uncanny Dodge

9th (Rogue 5): Sneak Attack +4d6; Daring Outlaw

10th (Rogue 6): Trap Sense +2, Sneak Attack +5d6

11th (Rogue 7): Dodge Bonus +2

12th (Rogue 8): Improved Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack +6d6, Grace +2; Improved Critical (dagger)

13th (Rogue 9): Trap Sense +3

14th (Rogue 10): Special Ability (Skill Mastery), Sneak Attack +7d6

15th (Rogue 11): Telling Blow

16th (Rogue 12): Trap Sense +4, Sneak Attack +8d6, Dodge Bonus +3

17th (Rogue 13: Special Ability (Defensive Roll)

18th (Rogue 14): Sneak Attack +9d6; Melee Evasion

19th (Rogue 15): Trap Sense +5

20th (Rogue 16): Special Ability (Elusive Target), Sneak Attack +10d6

Basically his shtick is a surprise knife to the kidney. He'll have the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel to do that (also one reason for Quick Draw--the other being multiple thrown daggers). Improved Feint and Telling Blow are both alternative ways for him to do Sneak Attack damage. He also ends up with a +16 BAB, meaning four attacks if he wants them.

What I'm thinking about doing alternatively, is to change out some feats for the TWF chain.
[/sblock]

 

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.

A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.

I assume the Fighter level is there to get the BAB to 16 before you hit epic, thus ensuring that you get 4 iterative attacks per round (before adding in bells and whistles)?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I assume the Fighter level is there to get the BAB to 16 before you hit epic, thus ensuring that you get 4 iterative attacks per round (before adding in bells and whistles)?

I suppose the OP doesn't impose multiclassing restrictions. Otherwise there is an XP penalty. Two levels of fighter would get rid of that (and another bonus feat!), but then you don't get 10d6 sneak attack at 20th level. The skills will really start to hurt, too.

But I don't know how many games get to 20th level. It's probably wisest to make the build strong at lower levels.

 

[Enforcer]

I suppose the OP doesn't impose multiclassing restrictions. Otherwise there is an XP penalty. Two levels of fighter would get rid of that (and another bonus feat!), but then you don't get 10d6 sneak attack at 20th level. The skills will really start to hurt, too.

But I don't know how many games get to 20th level. It's probably wisest to make the build strong at lower levels.

Doh! It's true you get multiclass penalties, but BAB +16 is achieved by switching Fighter 1 for Swashbuckler 4. Shame to lose a bonus feat for a dead level though...

And to Particle_Man--four levels of full BAB classes are there precisely to get the +16 BAB. It's also nice to take them at low levels so you can get a higher attack bonus and your first iterative attack sooner than a pure Rogue build would let you.

 

[monboesen]

Seems to me the feat is a much better deal for a character with many swashbuckler levels than one with many rogue levels.


The presented build gets a +3 dodge bonus, a +2 grace bonus to reflex saves, +1 bonus to base reflex save and +2d6 sneak attack.


A reverse build (Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16) gets +8d6 sneak attack, +1 dodge bonus, a +1 grace bonus to reflex saves and a +3 bonus to base reflex save.

 

[Torx]

In my campaign right now, one of the players is playing a Changeling Rogue 5/Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 3 (I waived the XP penalty cuz cleric is for RP reasons and actually has hindered the character a bit).

When CS came out, it was right when he was leveling up to 6th (Rog 4/Clr 1) and he had to make the decision. He knew he would have to take at least two levels of swashbuckler before he would be able to take the feat and have them stack. That meant that his sneak stagnated at 2d6 until he was 9th level. His character had always had a high Int since he was the group's skill-monkey, so the swashbuckler made a lot of sense for him. 6th and 7th levels were tough for his character as he lagged way behind in power level in every aspect save skills.

Since 8th and subsequently 9th level, he has been an excellent contributor in combat. Having his sneak go back up to 4d6 as well as having the bonus damage from Int, Dex-wielding rapier-ness has made it so that he can enter combat and deal an average of 20 damage on a sneak. That is a little more than half of what the fighter does on any given attack.

My view is that (for a RogX/Swsh3 at least) it's a tough feat to take. Since you have to be Rog2/Swsh2 before you qualify for the feat, it seriously hamper development when the character is played through. Most rogues will benefit from the free Weapon Finesse, but won't have too high a Intelligence, since they get 8 skill points/level anyway. Grace is almost a non-factor. My player has said the largest benefit for him was the d10 HD. He was lucky and had an 8 or above for each of the three levels, and that has made him confident enough to enter melee.

I think the feat is fine where it's at. Those two sub-optimal levels make it tough to get into, and rogues & swashbucklers get few enough feats as it is. It's made my player's skill-monkey into someone who can contribute in a big fight if need be. And that's made him happy and has done naught to upset any other members of the group (quite the contrary).

 

[Bagpuss]

I wonder how a Daring Warrior & Daring Outlaw would stack up with Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 13

That's effectively 17 levels of Swashbuckler (BAB +19, +3 Dodge), 16 Rogue (+8d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion) and 17 Fighter (9 feats, Weapon Spec, Greater WF, GWS).

Probably be better to go Rogue 4, Fighter 4 and Swashbuckler 12.

 

[AnonymousOne]

A reverse build (Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16) gets +8d6 sneak attack, +1 dodge bonus, a +1 grace bonus to reflex saves and a +3 bonus to base reflex save.

True, but if you want a skill character then you'll need all those skillpoints that he Rogue Gives you. Ultimately, with the forst build you don't get to take advantage of the Swash's Last Dodge and Grace Bonuses, but you do get to take advantage of The Rogue Abilities (i.e. The Special abilities or Feats, the skill point jump, Things like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, etc)
Attached is my build, I'm sure that there is at least one feat most DMs wouldn't allow(Mongoose Publishing's 'Improved Sneak Attack') , but oh well.

 

[Cheiromancer]

What would you use, AnonymousOne, in place of Improved Sneak Attack and Quickstrike? Well, I suppose it is one less feat if you replace the fighter level with a swashbuckler level (for BAB and hit points). Or maybe you could take a flaw.

Are there any skill tricks you would pick up?

 

[AnonymousOne]

That was a quick build. If I had to go Swash 4/Rogue 16 I'd drop both Quickstrike and Improved Sneak, I'd probably pick up Quickdraw (add a nice Throwing Dagger aspect to the the character, Maybe spring for returning daggers...) OR Deft Strike (Study to ignore Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses to AC)

I'd pick up some skill tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Group Fake out, Timely Misdirection, Never Outnumbered, Spot the Weak Point

I might pick up Corner Perch if running the Multi-Dagger idea.

The nice thing about those skill tricks is that some of them overlap with some of the feats like Spot the Weak Point and Deft Strike But that allows you to delay the feat until later and still get some of the benefits and once you have the feat, you can dump it and spend them on ranks in other skills or tricks...

i'm not too well versed in the flaws, so I wouldn't know what to pick up in that.