Dark Knowledge: Are medium and large elementals different races?

[Erywin]

Ok so this situation came up in our game tonight, wondering what ENners thought about it. Our party found ourselves against a large water elemental and a medium water elemental, I declared that my Archivist would use his Dark Knowledge to grant the party a better chance of hitting them both. Blarg, our DM raised the issue of that they weren't the same "race" for the purposes of using my Dark Knowledge. We debated and he ruled that they were the same race, altho he was interested in seeing the response from EN Worlders. So what are your opinions on the subject?

Also, would you consider a lesser barghest and a greater barghest the same race?

Cheers,
E

 

[DogBackward]

Generally, I consider "lesser", "greater" and all sizes ("small", "large", etc...) to be descriptors, not a part of the name. Think of it this way... it's not a Large Water Elemental, it's a Water Elemental that's large size. Also, if you say they're different, then you'd have to say that a creature that's been advanced far enough to increase its size would be a different race, as well.

Anyway, removing all the verbal clutter that comes from sleep deprivation; yes, they're still the same race. Barghests included.

 

[Dross]

My take on it is: If size determined different races, then dragons of different ages are actually different races.

As DogBackward said, the large, medium, small etc are only a decriptor, not a race definition.

 

[Stalker0]

Heck if you want to get even broader, the dark knowledge works on a type of creature, in this case elementals. You could even rule that dark knowledge (elementals) work on all elementals at once. That's a bit of a stretch, but I would certainly allow it to apply to all types of elementals.

 

[Bagpuss]

If you look at the fire elemental miniatures they certainly look like different races...

 

[werk]

I'd base my decision on type and sub-type. Obviously the same race would have the same type and sub-type.

The same thing that make humans and elves different races is what make water and fire elementals different races.

Does that hold up?

 

[cmrscorpio]

Erywin, I would consider the elementals the same race by virtue of the fact that they have the same flavor text and descriptive text.

Also, the barghests would be the same since the difference comes solely from advanced Hit Dice.

I'd base my decision on type and sub-type. Obviously the same race would have the same type and sub-type.

The same thing that make humans and elves different races is what make water and fire elementals different races.

Does that hold up?

I must play devil's advocate here: So, would an air elemental and a djinni be the same race because their types are both Elemental (air, extraplanar)?

 

[Wolfwood2]

I must play devil's advocate here: So, would an air elemental and a djinni be the same race because their types are both Elemental (air, extraplanar)?

A djinni is an Outsider.

 

[Deset Gled]

Based on the SRD, I'd say that they are different in the same way that a an Wood Elf is different than a Drow. Same genus, different species.

Note that Elementals do not "grow up" into larger Elementals; an advanced Large Water Elemental is still a Large Water Elemental, just with 15 HD instead of 8.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Based on the SRD, I'd say that they are different in the same way that a an Wood Elf is different than a Drow. Same genus, different species.

I think they're actually different subspecies of the species elf. (They are both listed as elf, and the can interbreed, though so can elves and humans).

Back on topic I don't think the rules say either way if they are related, so I think that any DM can rule that either way, and that's the way it works in his game. In your game it sounds like they're different.