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D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

Is problematic content acceptable if obviously, explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 205 89.5%
  • No.

    Votes: 24 10.5%


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Perhaps we suspend out disbelief that the fictional "good guy" is not guilty of multiple counts of involuntary manslaughter because we are addicted to the adrenaline rush of all that violence and blood and things going smashy-smashy. So believe the fantasy that he's still a good guy despite being utterly reckless with innocent lives.

But some of us cannot suspend out disbelief that fictional slavery is ok, because there is no such adrenaline rush as a reward.

Do you think it could be something like that?

I think the idea is that when we are watching a film, often times we see from the character's perspective the justifications for violence and we're meant to understand them. This is not always the case, though, and there are times where we aren't meant to forgive or empathize with the usage of violence. Framing ultimately decides how we are supposed to feel about it.

When you're a PC, you absolutely understand why you want to resort to violence. Combined with the power fantasy, the knowledge that it isn't real, and knowing that you're the main character, you fully understand your reasoning. But hey, even then people can disagree with people at the table causing violence: I'm sure we've all had instances where we or other players were violent with our PCs and the rest of the table did not understand why. Again, it's all about understanding why and being able to justify it.

With slavery, there's no feeling that it can be justified. We're taught that it's just wrong and we shouldn't do it. This is the same for a lot of things that are universally unacceptable, like sexual assault, child abuse, etc. Even if you are stopping them, there are plenty of people who can be skeevied out by using that sort of stuff in a game. It can come off as exploitative or just tone-deaf. And that's not making a judgment if you do that at your table, but it's more talking about how people react differently to different things. There's much more risk when talking about these sorts of fraught elements compared to combat and violence.

We’re back to this? There’s nothing stopping that from happening now. Having it in an official setting won’t change that. And it’s weird to want to prevent people from having a choice because they might use that choice in a way you don’t like.

I mean, not having it in the official setting means someone else is adding it in, not being enabled by the game company. And we're not talking about a setting where there is an evil nation who does this, but that it's largely ubiquitous.

Why not? We do exactly the same by reducing the pain of murder, violence, war, famine, colonization, on and on and on…all for plot hooks.

I'll point out that people do talk about not using things like colonization and such for plot hooks, precisely for this sort of reason.

And what if we’re wrong?

That happens all the time at tables. People have weird instances where people don't understand why they get violent. But those are often individualized. This is the same as them not creating a setting where slavery is so common that it's hard to simply put it to the side.

So combine the two and indulge in the power fantasy of fixing a clearly broken and evil society by engaging in some of the old ultra-violence…directed at slavers.

Yeah, not all players will do that, nor is the setting simply going to be about that. When you create a setting where legalized chattel slavery is commonplace, you really can't stop players from engaging with it in, well, bad ways.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I mean, not having it in the official setting means someone else is adding it in, not being enabled by the game company. And we're not talking about a setting where there is an evil nation who does this, but that it's largely ubiquitous.
It’s already in every official setting. Drow, mind flayers, and neogi. They’re slavers.
I'll point out that people do talk about not using things like colonization and such for plot hooks, precisely for this sort of reason.
See my edit. I meant to say “why not bring it up?” I did not mean “why not trivialize it?”

Yes, some people do bring that up. And the rest of the hobby keeps on ignoring them.
That happens all the time at tables.
No. What if we’re wrong for lionizing that violence in the real world? What if we’re wrong for glorifying it?
Yeah, not all players will do that, nor is the setting simply going to be about that. When you create a setting where legalized chattel slavery is commonplace, you really can't stop players from engaging with it in, well, bad ways.
You can’t control what people do with tools. It’s dangerous to even try.
 

Emoshin

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
So combine the two and indulge in the power fantasy of fixing a clearly broken and evil society by engaging in some of the old ultra-violence…directed at slavers.
There HAS to be limits to this. Publishers will not create stories to indulge in power fantasies of fixing a broken and evil society without some parameters that are grounded in reality.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I wouldn’t even go so far as to say it has to be presented as explicitly evil, though that is a valid approach and probably the safest bet if the goal is to avoid criticism. But, like, if the Sorcerer Kings were humanized and presented as flawed individuals rather than outright evil villains, that would still be perfectly acceptable in my view, because the central themes of the setting are still fundamentally about environmentalism and class conflict, which are good themes to explore.
 


It’s already in every official setting. Drow, mind flayers, and neogi. They’re slavers.

I can play an entire campaign in the Realms and not meet a slave. I think it's being a bit dishonest to say it's nearly as ubiquitous. But I am similar to @Vaalingrade where I wish things didn't default to every 2nd nation being slavers.

See my edit. I meant to say “why not bring it up?” I did not mean “why not trivialize it?”

I'm not accusing you of trivializing it, but at the same time you aren't selling something for a profit to an audience of millions. You can make your game about this, you can probably handle some of the subjects I mentioned above with your group as well. But it's harder for companies because they don't know how their audiences will react or handle it. Some might not like these things, others might like these things for the wrong reasons. There's no perfect solution, but at the same time I think there is a bit of logic in how we go about it.

Yes, some people do bring that up. And the rest of the hobby keeps on ignoring them.

I don't think the hobby is ignoring them as much as you think. Rather, I think a lot of people are growing uncomfortable with that stuff as time goes on.

No. What if we’re wrong for lionizing that violence in the real world? What if we’re wrong for glorifying it?

Like, we don't lionize all violence, we just find certain kinds acceptable. If we didn't find those kinds of violence acceptable, we wouldn't be playing these games. They'd feel bad. I don't see the use in this hypothetical.

You can’t control what people do with tools. It’s dangerous to even try.

But you can limit your own role in what they do, and I suspect that's what that would come down to.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm trying to remember how much blowback Tarantino got about his treatment of the issue in Django Unchained. It's the nearest equivalent I can come up with in recent entertainment media to how DS historically treated slavery.

Mind you, Tarantino is about as far as you can get from my idea of the moral compass on this sort of thing, but I'm more thinking of what the public response was like.
I believe the film was generally pretty well-received, apart from some criticism about its heavy use of the n-word. Which was of course appropriate to the period and subject matter, but a lot of folks felt that Quinten Tarantino was not exactly the best person to be addressing such subject matter.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Same. Star Wars. Star Trek. Doctor Who. It’s honestly bizarre. People must have had them on in the other room with the sound off, or were too busy hiding behind the sofa, to not notice all those message-hammers hitting them over the head all those decades.
No, it’s just that the people who tend to get upset about things “going woke” also tend to have very poor media literacy.
 


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