Dark Sun Themes in a Non-Dark Sun, Custom Campaign World

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I'm about to start a campaign, set in a world of my (and the groups) own making; and I was wondering; if you yourself did something like that, would you let players choose Dark Sun themes (albeit, change the names and fluff)?

It doesn't seem like it would create any problems, except that, there's one that I've noticed so far, that is, if an Avenger took (the Wilder I believe), he or she could abuse its theme power, kind of (it allows a character to score a crit on 18-20, for a round). So I thought maybe, just not let divine characters (or hybrids) take Dark Sun themes? Or maybe, just allow some of the Dark Sun themes that tend to be a little more on the generic side (Like Gladiator, and Primal Guardian, Minstrel, etc). And/or perhaps, only let Psionic characters take a Dark Sun theme from the Psionic power source.

Btw, did Dragon Magazine #401 have any new themes in it?

 

[Vael]

There's a theme in Dragon 401 revolving around using Fortune Cards. Haven't read it, but reviews I read were underwhelmed by it (though most of that can be drawn for antipathy for Fortune Cards).

I try not to be overly restrictive in my campaigns, but I haven't started any since themes came out. My take would probably be, if a player wanted a Dark Sun theme, I'd talk to them specifically about refluffing for this world. Templars, for example, make good dark wizards, especially if you add in Arcane Defiling as an added feature of the theme. Or ... Templars have fairly interesting leader powers, just make up an order of Arcane Warlords.

As for abusive combos ... I don't think there are any really impressive ones. Said Avenger with the Wilder theme used up their standard action attack for a mediocre ranged attack that gives one round of expanded crits. It's not that impressive. Power point users will all jump at being a Noble Adept, but again, I don't think it's horribly unbalanced.

 

[Incenjucar]

Dark Sun themes are perfectly fine for other games. They're actually on the weak side now that the new themes give you bonuses as you level.

 

[Kinneus]

Dark Sun themes are perfectly fine for other games. They're actually on the weak side now that the new themes give you bonuses as you level.

While I agree with this in general, the OP had a pretty good catch with Avengers and Wild Surge.

Personally, I'd either use your restriction that Wilder requires the Psionic power source, or just allow it and let the chips fall where they may. Your players might not even catch this little synergy. Maybe nobody will be interested in playing an Avenger, period, thus making it a non-issue. And if somebody does make a Wilder Avenger, then all they're getting is an increased chance to crit for a couple of rounds an encounter. Powerful? Yes. Cool trick? Yes. Pretty friggin' sweet to do at level 1? Sure. But game-breaking, and requiring a house rule? Eh, probably not.

If it ends up happening, and if it ends being a huge issue,then you can fix it later.

 

[Riastlin]

Well, I look at it this way. Would you allow a DS feat (properly refluffed of course)? A DS item? Paragon Path? If so, then there's no reason not to allow a theme. My current game is set in a homebrew world, but I also generally allow the players to pull from any WotC source. If they are wanting something really feels campaign-specific (like the Dragon marks of Eberron or spell scars of FR), then I'll talk with the player and try to refluff it so that it fits with the setting.

The only reasons (from a balance/mechanics standpoint) not to allow DS theme in my book would be a) refusal of the player to refluff the theme to fit your world or b) a general ban on themes in your game altogether.

This is of course, just my opinion and your mileage may very well vary.

 

[Destil]

While I agree with this in general, the OP had a pretty good catch with Avengers and Wild Surge.

Why would this be broken? The Avenger doesn't get their oath bonus on the wild surge, still needs to hit with it, likely deals less damage with it than just using another avenger power. Depending on the chances to hit with surge you'd most likely end up with a slightly better chance of getting one crit but worse odds of getting two (or you may just break even, since you need to hit with surge).

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Dark Sun themes are perfectly fine for other games. They're actually on the weak side now that the new themes give you bonuses as you level.

True. But there are more alternate powers to choose from.

Well, I look at it this way. Would you allow a DS feat (properly refluffed of course)? A DS item? Paragon Path? If so, then there's no reason not to allow a theme. My current game is set in a homebrew world, but I also generally allow the players to pull from any WotC source. If they are wanting something really feels campaign-specific (like the Dragon marks of Eberron or spell scars of FR), then I'll talk with the player and try to refluff it so that it fits with the setting

I usually allow everything. But I do make an exception for Dragonmarks, being that they obsolete a lot of similar, but less powerful feats. Moreover, when I allowed them, I never had a leader NOT take the Mark of Healing (and "must have" feats bother me, in general).

Why would this be broken? The Avenger doesn't get their oath bonus on the wild surge, still needs to hit with it, likely deals less damage with it than just using another avenger power. Depending on the chances to hit with surge you'd most likely end up with a slightly better chance of getting one crit but worse odds of getting two (or you may just break even, since you need to hit with surge).

Ah yes, after re-reading the Wilder power, I notice now that the Wilder attack is a ranged attack. That changes my initial impression considerably.
Thanks everyone. I'm going to allow them (refluffed, of course)

 

[Kinneus]

Why would this be broken? The Avenger doesn't get their oath bonus on the wild surge, still needs to hit with it, likely deals less damage with it than just using another avenger power. Depending on the chances to hit with surge you'd most likely end up with a slightly better chance of getting one crit but worse odds of getting two (or you may just break even, since you need to hit with surge).

Well, first of all, I never said it was broken. If you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I'm of the opinion that this is overall nothing to worry about.

But I have to say, I think you might be misinterpreting or misremembering how the Wilder's Psychic Surge works. The actual hit-line text:

Hit: 1d8 + ability modifier psychic damage, and your attacks against the target before the end of your next turn can score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.

Your attacks until the end of your next turn get expanded crit range. Not just ranged attacks, and not just Psychic Surge (in fact, Psychic Surge itself does not get any sort of expanded crit range). So, personally, if I was playing an Avenger Wilder in the OP's campaign, I'd do this:
Round 1: A) Pick a lucky customer and use Psychic Surge on it.
B) Walk up to it with a move action, and then use Oath of Enmity on it as a minor.
C) Assuming I hit, I'd action point, and use an Avenger attack. If I missed with Psychic Surge, I'd hang on to my AP and try this again next encounter.

Round 2: A) Use an Avenger attack.

This would allow me to roll 4 dice capable of getting a crit on an 18 or higher, once every couple of encounters, at level 1. Powerful, fun, and a greatly improved chance to crit over the standard 5%? Certainly.

Overpowered and necessitating a house rule? It remains to be seen, but I think probably not.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I myself didn't think about using an action point in conjunction with it. Nonetheless, it only seems powerful at very low levels. Albeit, the Wilder Avenger might gain additional attacks granted by his allies (and is own immediate perhaps), in the meantime. Granted, anyone with the theme power could, but there are no avengers in Dark Sun (albeit, they are not banned per se) and I wonder if the designers would have reconsidered making the Wilder theme power the way that they did if there were avengers in Dark Sun?

I may perhaps change (homebrew) the duration to, "your next attack," instead of "until the end of your next turn." Albeit, I don't know if that is even necessary (and also would nerf the theme power too much, in general). I'm not so worried about it being too powerful, as much as I am worried about making that theme too irresistable for an avenger not to take, especially, since avengers seem to have a lot of "irresistables" to take (albeit, the Oradained Priest theme is a pretty good one too.). But as it stands, I'm leaning towards allowing it, as is, given that the avenger would have to pass-up a chance to use one possible OoE attack, in order to use the theme's ranged attack to activate the effect.

We're making (some) players tonite. That's why I'm repeating myself. Thus, I'm trying to hear all possible objections in allowing it, as is.