Darkness and Dread: Anyone have it?

[Gothmog]

Hey Joshua,

I got Darkness & Dread a month or two ago when it came out. I was really excited about this book, both for the horror aspect, and because Mike Mearls wrote it. Overall its a decent book, but it didn't live up to my expectations. The classes are ok, but for a very low magic game, and something more investigative than combat-oriented. Don't get me wrong, the classes were well done, but you couldn't really use them with standard D&D classes without the D&D ones overshadowing the Darkness & Dread classes.

The madness and black magic chapters are probably the highlights of the book, with cool ways to incorporate madness without it being all or none (like CoC), and black magic is scary and powerful. The research chapter is pretty good as well, but won't appeal to people who want a more action-packed campaign.

The last section of the book, dealing with running horror adventures, was the least useful to me. I already had the old ICE book Nightmares of Mine (highly recommended), so the tips for running horror adventures were rather bland and self-evident. Plus, if you've ever run a CoC campaign or horror game, you've already liekly read much more in-depth tips for how to run a good horror game. The sample setting in the book was ok, but nothing too exciting either.

It seems to me that in order to get maximum use out of Darkness & Dread, you'd have to design a campaign around it from the beginning. Its not a universal toolkit, but more of a primer for starting a horror campaign from scratch. The only things easily transposable out of the book are the madness and black magic rules- both of which are quite good. So I guess I've give this book a qualified thumbs up- not too useful for experienced horror/dark fantasy DMs, but good for novices.

 

[Krieg]

Darkness & Dread is definitely moving up on my list of books to take a look at.

The Sanity rules, coming practically unchanged from the BRP system, feels very odd on top of the d20 game engine. The text in the book said that was done on purpose to create the feeling that it's somehow "wrong" but it really just is a jarring feel in play and is poor game design, IMO. It works, but it's not elegant.

Divide by 5 perhaps?

FWIW Grim Tales & OGL Horror both also contain horror/madness rules tailor made for D20.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That kinda seems to be the point, though; a CoC vibe in a fantasy setting. One of the problems with CoC is that it isn't very aesthetically pleasing from a game design standpoint. The Sanity rules, coming practically unchanged from the BRP system, feels very odd on top of the d20 game engine. The text in the book said that was done on purpose to create the feeling that it's somehow "wrong" but it really just is a jarring feel in play and is poor game design, IMO. It works, but it's not elegant. This book seemed to have mechanics that did the same thing but were designed to work within the framework of d20, which I was very interested in.

Then you'll be interested in this book.

From a reviewer's point of view, though, I felt it necessary to warn you that there are things you might find familiar. Overall, I love the Legends & Lairs series. I own Dungeoncraft, Cityscapes, the Wilderness one I can't think of the name of right now, and Darkness & Dread. They are all very useful.

I've also heard from the rpg.net discussion that there's some awesome GM advice in this book; any comments on that?

Can you be a bit more specific in your question? To my mind, most of the rules sections are chock full of DM advice, and ideas that might spur adventures. Or parts of adventures. Certainly, there is a lot of advice on how to institute the changes suggested in the book, which would be absolutely mandatory for anyone who hasn't run this type of game before (and fun for the rest of us to read).

EDIT: Oh, and any comments on the mini-setting? Northwall, is it called? What's that like?

Actually, it's described well enough to run a campaign in & around. Sort of a Lovecraft/Poe place to be. The chapter discusses how Northwall changes over time as well, which is darn useful.

RC

 

[Desdichado]

Divide by 5 perhaps?

FWIW Grim Tales & OGL Horror both also contain horror/madness rules tailor made for D20.

Yeah, I've thought of simply dividing by 5, but it seems to me that it'd be difficult to work Sanity that way without it becoming way too hard on the players, because you don't have small enough increments to lose. This book, which supposedly has fear, horror and sanity rules that are all different but which work together as a suite is nice.

OGL Horror I haven't heard much about, and what I have heard is mixed. Grim Tales has been on my "to buy" list for 2004 since I first heard of it, but the timing of the release with my big vacation ensured that I was cash flow crunched, so it's had to wait a little while.

This book, on the other hand, was completely under my radar; I hadn't even heard of it until I was browsing the FFG site looking for something else entirely yesterday. Because my fantasy campaign has a very strong horror vibe running through it already, I was naturally intrigued by the descriptions of this book.

 

[Desdichado]

I got Darkness & Dread a month or two ago when it came out. I was really excited about this book, both for the horror aspect, and because Mike Mearls wrote it. Overall its a decent book, but it didn't live up to my expectations. The classes are ok, but for a very low magic game, and something more investigative than combat-oriented. Don't get me wrong, the classes were well done, but you couldn't really use them with standard D&D classes without the D&D ones overshadowing the Darkness & Dread classes.

I don't use many of the standard D&D classes anyway, but this is the section I was least excited about. I've got plenty of alternate classes if I want them already. Plus, I do like some combat here and there; my "horror" campaign has a bit of a Mummy vibe rather than really stark terror.

The madness and black magic chapters are probably the highlights of the book, with cool ways to incorporate madness without it being all or none (like CoC), and black magic is scary and powerful. The research chapter is pretty good as well, but won't appeal to people who want a more action-packed campaign.

Nice. Although my current campaign isn't as investigative, I can imagine enjoying one that is, though. It'd be fun to run this as a one-shot at a convention or something to try it out.

The last section of the book, dealing with running horror adventures, was the least useful to me. I already had the old ICE book Nightmares of Mine (highly recommended), so the tips for running horror adventures were rather bland and self-evident. Plus, if you've ever run a CoC campaign or horror game, you've already liekly read much more in-depth tips for how to run a good horror game. The sample setting in the book was ok, but nothing too exciting either.

Yeah, I did find it hard to imagine that the advice was better than John Tynes absolutely excellent advice in the d20 Call of Cthulhu book, and even a lot of that was either common sense or stuff that I figured out on my own anyway. Still, I heard a fair amount of praise for this section o rpg.net, and I'm always willing to read another GMing section to see if I can't glean anything new.

It seems to me that in order to get maximum use out of Darkness & Dread, you'd have to design a campaign around it from the beginning. Its not a universal toolkit, but more of a primer for starting a horror campaign from scratch. The only things easily transposable out of the book are the madness and black magic rules- both of which are quite good. So I guess I've give this book a qualified thumbs up- not too useful for experienced horror/dark fantasy DMs, but good for novices.

Hmm, I actually hadn't quite expected that. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean I'm unlikely to actually use the book for a while, at the very least, as I'm currently running something else and I'm already quite happy with the rules in play.

 

[Krieg]

Yeah, I've thought of simply dividing by 5, but it seems to me that it'd be difficult to work Sanity that way without it becoming way too hard on the players, because you don't have small enough increments to lose.

It can definitely work, you just have to use horror checks more sparingly. For me that works better anyways as I prefer to use sanity loss only under extreme circumstances.

ie Seeing an Orc isn't a hit to sanity, but watching an aboleth feeding is a mind shredder.

OGL Horror I haven't heard much about, and what I have heard is mixed.

There are some good ideas in OGL Horror. The magic, faith & psychic rules are all kinda nifty. Unfortunately it suffers the same problems as most of the OGL line...too much copy and paste from the SRD etc.

This book, on the other hand, was completely under my radar; I hadn't even heard of it until I was browsing the FFG site looking for something else entirely yesterday. Because my fantasy campaign has a very strong horror vibe running through it already, I was naturally intrigued by the descriptions of this book.

I first heard of it about a month ago. Wasn't too excited at first, but as I learn more about it I am definitely becoming more interested. It sounds as if it has more to offer (me) than I had first assumed.

 

[Desdichado]

Then you'll be interested in this book.

From a reviewer's point of view, though, I felt it necessary to warn you that there are things you might find familiar.

Not unexpected.

Can you be a bit more specific in your question? To my mind, most of the rules sections are chock full of DM advice, and ideas that might spur adventures. Or parts of adventures. Certainly, there is a lot of advice on how to institute the changes suggested in the book, which would be absolutely mandatory for anyone who hasn't run this type of game before (and fun for the rest of us to read).

Not really. Not having the book, I don't know what those comments were referring to exactly, but what I heard was this: "I'd recommend the book for the horror campaign advice alone. The author is sharp." Sounds like you're saying essentially the same thing.

Actually, it's described well enough to run a campaign in & around. Sort of a Lovecraft/Poe place to be. The chapter discusses how Northwall changes over time as well, which is darn useful.

What are some of the other details? How does it stand out, exactly?

 

[Raven Crowking]

This book, which supposedly has fear, horror and sanity rules that are all different but which work together as a suite is nice.

You heard correctly. And, yes, it is nice. I almost instantly created an idol that, while you carried it, slowly devoured your self esteem using the insanity rules from this book. Even once you got rid of it, it took weeks to regain what you had lost.

Joshua, this book would probably be useful to the game style you run, from this thread and various other comments you have made in various other posts. The fear, horror, and sanity rules are certainly workable, though you have to customize them to your own game (as though you weren't going to do that anyway ).

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't use many of the standard D&D classes anyway, but this is the section I was least excited about. I've got plenty of alternate classes if I want them already. Plus, I do like some combat here and there; my "horror" campaign has a bit of a Mummy vibe rather than really stark terror.

I wasn't in the market for new, low-power classes either. But, I did pick apart the classes for new abilities that could be converted into interesting feats. Some of these are a lot more likely for NPCs than PCs.

I have no intention of scrapping my current campaign to include what I like from this book. I definately intend on using the fear and insanity rules, though I will lower the fear ratings of creatures because my game isn't that dark. I would also allow people to eventually lose traits they gain through loss of sanity, if enough sanity is restored.

The research chapter includes information on books and libraries. The information on books was old hat, but the information on finding things in libraries was definately useful. It provided a nice ability to create a collection of books that could then include specific books the PCs need to reference.

Dark Pacts? Already included in my campaign. Yes, Virginia, there are demons. And they tempt you. We should get a "more dark pacts" thread going here!

I've already used a godling in an adventure, and scions of that godling, so the brief monsters section is useful. There are also some tables that might provide ideas for disguising standard D&D monsters.

The black magic section works by designating some spells as ones which call upon infernal powers. There are consequences for using them. There are also some nice new qualities for magic items that make use of the rules presented in this book. I'm sure, going through the book, you will be able to think of more.

Oh, yeah, they also suggest ways to make PCs more vulnerable in combat. In the average horror-type game, combat is to be avoided.

The chapter on designing a dark adventure is, essentially, advice on how to create an adventure that requires the PCs to do some research. The advice is solid so far as it goes.

Only if you wanted to run a game in Northwall would you be unable to port any of these ideas into your current game. If you chose the toughest options on all of these ideas, your PCs' lives would be nasty, brutish, and short.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

What are some of the other details [of Northwall]? How does it stand out, exactly?

Northwall is a little trading outpost at the end of the world. The chronological end of the world. Dark forces are moving, and when the campaign is over, it's over.

Each area is given a rather generic initial description, but then the book goes on to describe how the place changes as the end of the world draws near. I left the book at work, or I'd give you a proper example. Cults spring up, or take over. Less prosperous areas become more dangerous and dark (perhaps less human as well), the nobility loses itself in revels, etc. It is the idea that the setting is dynamic, changing for the worse as the campaign progresses, that makes Northwall seem like an interesting place for a PC group's home base. While it lasts.

Northwall gives you two options: the PCs can stop the end of the world, or they can't.

There are a lot of stealable ideas in Northwall, but it's too dark for me to use wholesale in my current campaign.

RC