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Darkvision: Don't forget the Disadvantage & limitations!
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7424814" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>Yes, this thread is about the fact that some people forget that darkvision imposes disadvantage on Perception in the darkness. Perhaps the majority of those people that forget that are ones that played 3/3.5/Pathfinder/4e?</p><p></p><p>There are many people just picking up 5e, or those that played prior to 3e and didn't agree with the change that there was no disadvantage at all in the darkness for creatures that had darkvision (infravision). You can choose to contrast any edition you'd like. Just like I (and the collective we) can choose whichever one we'd like. And sources outside of D&D too. </p><p></p><p>Yes, you've made it clear that one of your issues is that too many character races have darkvision. But if you alter the rules for vision it will affect more than just those races. For example, if there is a low-light vision option, there are scores of creatures that had it in 3e but don't have darkvision in 5e. Should they have it again? Are there other races that had low-light vision that now have darkvision? Furthermore, this particular thread doesn't have anything to do with PC races. It's just that they sometimes forget the effects of darkness on darkvision.</p><p></p><p>3e "just worked" for you. It has no more or less relevance than any other edition. It just happens to be the one you like best (in terms of vision rules). It also happens to be the same rule that 4e used. </p><p></p><p>Kudos to you trying to help. So does that mean that others can't try to help? That perhaps there are other things regarding vision that other people like/don't like and that you're solution isn't one size fits all, and even potentially makes it worse for some of us? </p><p></p><p>I have "tried it" - when 3e came out. We hated it. Despised it. We did like the simplicity, but we thought it was overpowered/unrealistic, for both low-light and darkvision. If you recall (or if you didn't know), hiding used to be a function of move silently and hide in shadows. Hiding in D&D was specifically focused on the shadows. The answer in 3e was to require concealment or cover to attempt to hide, and there are no shadows or concealment in total darkness.</p><p></p><p>I totally agree with you, if a creature can see without hindrance in total darkness, they'd never use light. Although that's not the description of drowish cities going back to at least <em>Menzoberranzan</em> where things are lit with phosphorescent mosses and fungi, faerie fire, and such. But if darkness provides a significant disadvantage to your vision, then I still maintain that intelligent such creatures would use it. </p><p></p><p>Having said that, I'll once again state that for many people, your solution will work just fine. It's worked for most since 3e came out. I still think that most of the people that are forgetting it are those that played earlier editions. The system is still much better than the infravision/ultravision system of OD&D/AD&D/BECMI, if a bit too powerful and simplistic. It's just not a solution I'm interested in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7424814, member: 6778044"] Yes, this thread is about the fact that some people forget that darkvision imposes disadvantage on Perception in the darkness. Perhaps the majority of those people that forget that are ones that played 3/3.5/Pathfinder/4e? There are many people just picking up 5e, or those that played prior to 3e and didn't agree with the change that there was no disadvantage at all in the darkness for creatures that had darkvision (infravision). You can choose to contrast any edition you'd like. Just like I (and the collective we) can choose whichever one we'd like. And sources outside of D&D too. Yes, you've made it clear that one of your issues is that too many character races have darkvision. But if you alter the rules for vision it will affect more than just those races. For example, if there is a low-light vision option, there are scores of creatures that had it in 3e but don't have darkvision in 5e. Should they have it again? Are there other races that had low-light vision that now have darkvision? Furthermore, this particular thread doesn't have anything to do with PC races. It's just that they sometimes forget the effects of darkness on darkvision. 3e "just worked" for you. It has no more or less relevance than any other edition. It just happens to be the one you like best (in terms of vision rules). It also happens to be the same rule that 4e used. Kudos to you trying to help. So does that mean that others can't try to help? That perhaps there are other things regarding vision that other people like/don't like and that you're solution isn't one size fits all, and even potentially makes it worse for some of us? I have "tried it" - when 3e came out. We hated it. Despised it. We did like the simplicity, but we thought it was overpowered/unrealistic, for both low-light and darkvision. If you recall (or if you didn't know), hiding used to be a function of move silently and hide in shadows. Hiding in D&D was specifically focused on the shadows. The answer in 3e was to require concealment or cover to attempt to hide, and there are no shadows or concealment in total darkness. I totally agree with you, if a creature can see without hindrance in total darkness, they'd never use light. Although that's not the description of drowish cities going back to at least [I]Menzoberranzan[/I] where things are lit with phosphorescent mosses and fungi, faerie fire, and such. But if darkness provides a significant disadvantage to your vision, then I still maintain that intelligent such creatures would use it. Having said that, I'll once again state that for many people, your solution will work just fine. It's worked for most since 3e came out. I still think that most of the people that are forgetting it are those that played earlier editions. The system is still much better than the infravision/ultravision system of OD&D/AD&D/BECMI, if a bit too powerful and simplistic. It's just not a solution I'm interested in. [/QUOTE]
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