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Darkvision: Don't forget the Disadvantage & limitations!
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7424992" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>My common sense i would like to think has improved since 1e days, but certainly that is debateable.</p><p></p><p>First off, obviously any gm can house rule the vision and light rules to whatever degree they want - i did.</p><p></p><p>But there is a clear difference between "disadvantage" as a penalty and "disadvantage *and* require rolls for bunches of stuff that are automatic - no roll required." </p><p></p><p>What you seem to be suggesting is that not only should disadvantahe on rolled checks be applied but also a whole lot of other things require rolls to even attempt.</p><p></p><p>In combat, you gain disadvantage on attacks made while prone - what other not specified common sense from 1e penalties do you apply? Do they have to roll to successfully draw a weapon or ammo? </p><p></p><p>Or is the idea that disadvantage means more than the roll only applying to vision?</p><p></p><p>With infravision being its own thing in 5e, whether you could read with infravision in pre-5e has little sway.</p><p></p><p>I think its important to look at 5e itself when looking at the vision rules to get a handle on what dim light means.</p><p></p><p>"A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight."</p><p></p><p>I cannot apeak for everyone, but i think if GMs started telling folks the cannot read their maps (or need to pass disad check vs dc) in patchy fog or moderate foliage and supporting it as "common sense since 1e" there would be a lot of WTF responses. </p><p></p><p>Further do wn the RAW specifies dim light as shadows including "The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light." I say again telling someone they cant read (or need to pass disad check vs dc) their maps at dawn likely gets WTF responses.</p><p></p><p>Again, obviously, a gm can house rule special additional,penalties for DV </p><p>, or dim light or a broader general rule for "when you get disadvantage" for any game subject to only that game's agreed upon hpuse rule policy.</p><p></p><p>But that means its not the core rules at fault problem if problems arise out of that.</p><p></p><p>Asude: My personal disagreement with the RAW lighting vision is that it created serious problems to the point that folks did not forget it bit intentionally handwaved it for playability. That seemed to make darkvision more of a necessity to survive and lack of darkvision way too massively exploitable - due to such a preponderance of "darkness - blindness" in everyday cases. </p><p></p><p>That puts darkvision at mostly necessity and outdoors at night without it massively disadvantaged instead of simply making darkvision an advantage.</p><p></p><p>It should be fairly easy under RAW lighting for any human and halfling travellers or caravans to be easy pickins for DV enabled raiders unless its a "exceptionally brilliant full moon" for instance - barting rather significant magical assistance.</p><p>This kind of thing leads to what quite a few gms describe as more or less "does somebody have torch and their sheet?" dismissal of the situation altogether.</p><p></p><p>What i prefer to have are consistent and playable rules for the visiin and lighting. </p><p></p><p>Going the route of adding more severe penalties by house rule to the borderline edge case is going in the wrong direction to me. The more onerous you make even the dim lighting situations the more necessary you make darkvision or the more likely you make "we cannot go there cuz of vision problem" decisions and the more likely you make "shoot out the lights" an oppressively threatening potentally overwhelming option.</p><p></p><p>That way lies "only adventure on bright sunny days" madness.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7424992, member: 6919838"] My common sense i would like to think has improved since 1e days, but certainly that is debateable. First off, obviously any gm can house rule the vision and light rules to whatever degree they want - i did. But there is a clear difference between "disadvantage" as a penalty and "disadvantage *and* require rolls for bunches of stuff that are automatic - no roll required." What you seem to be suggesting is that not only should disadvantahe on rolled checks be applied but also a whole lot of other things require rolls to even attempt. In combat, you gain disadvantage on attacks made while prone - what other not specified common sense from 1e penalties do you apply? Do they have to roll to successfully draw a weapon or ammo? Or is the idea that disadvantage means more than the roll only applying to vision? With infravision being its own thing in 5e, whether you could read with infravision in pre-5e has little sway. I think its important to look at 5e itself when looking at the vision rules to get a handle on what dim light means. "A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight." I cannot apeak for everyone, but i think if GMs started telling folks the cannot read their maps (or need to pass disad check vs dc) in patchy fog or moderate foliage and supporting it as "common sense since 1e" there would be a lot of WTF responses. Further do wn the RAW specifies dim light as shadows including "The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light." I say again telling someone they cant read (or need to pass disad check vs dc) their maps at dawn likely gets WTF responses. Again, obviously, a gm can house rule special additional,penalties for DV , or dim light or a broader general rule for "when you get disadvantage" for any game subject to only that game's agreed upon hpuse rule policy. But that means its not the core rules at fault problem if problems arise out of that. Asude: My personal disagreement with the RAW lighting vision is that it created serious problems to the point that folks did not forget it bit intentionally handwaved it for playability. That seemed to make darkvision more of a necessity to survive and lack of darkvision way too massively exploitable - due to such a preponderance of "darkness - blindness" in everyday cases. That puts darkvision at mostly necessity and outdoors at night without it massively disadvantaged instead of simply making darkvision an advantage. It should be fairly easy under RAW lighting for any human and halfling travellers or caravans to be easy pickins for DV enabled raiders unless its a "exceptionally brilliant full moon" for instance - barting rather significant magical assistance. This kind of thing leads to what quite a few gms describe as more or less "does somebody have torch and their sheet?" dismissal of the situation altogether. What i prefer to have are consistent and playable rules for the visiin and lighting. Going the route of adding more severe penalties by house rule to the borderline edge case is going in the wrong direction to me. The more onerous you make even the dim lighting situations the more necessary you make darkvision or the more likely you make "we cannot go there cuz of vision problem" decisions and the more likely you make "shoot out the lights" an oppressively threatening potentally overwhelming option. That way lies "only adventure on bright sunny days" madness. [/QUOTE]
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