DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[CapnZapp]

Just to add that I think I've read through all the posts now, at least the ones made before the thread was restarted this year. Finally!

Pretty great thread! I love the idea of OSR, I'm just waiting for a game approaching the official game's solidness (as regards rules writing) - there's a large number of OSR games out there but either they go the minimalist route (meaning there just isn't much there) or they lose their way in labyrinthine subsystems and wonky (or nonexistent) game balance.

I guess I don't want to give up hope that it is possible to marry OSR sensibilities with actual depth and stability* to charbuilding. Perhaps I'm chasing a pipe dream though, and that it just isn't possible to reconcile my wish for characters with flaws and shortcomings with the idol worship inherent in the structure of D&D; its basic ubermensch mentality borne out of levels and hit points augmented by the fascinating minigame of charop.
*) For a value of "stability" that doesn't sacrifice OSR-y potions of mutation or garter belts of gender change, at least

Anyway, if you're waiting for a reply, please ping me again - there were a lot of conversations here.

 

[MNblockhead]

The other poster tried to further the inexplicable (and frankly, trolling) argument that playing with DCC level zero characters should always end up with all of them dying.

This is absurd. As if regular D&D level 1 characters are that much more resilient?! (If you start at level 5 or higher, and NPCs remain the same where few common humanoids you'll meet in the street have more than three hit dice) I could absolutely see this. But at level 1? No way.)

Sure they are definitely stronger, but going from traditional zero-to-hero campaign to "everybody just dies, and rightly so" is just an amazing instance of having bad luck when thinking!

So thanks, but I don't need actual characters. My point is that the difference is must assuredly not even close to being so big that you can argue that if you play with L0 characters - in any iteration of D&D - you all should "realistically" die, while (presumably) that's not the case for regular D&D L1 ones.

Yeah, for me, the funnel is a good tool to have an early experience of significant death in the starting group to set a tone, get people over being overly precious with their characters, and giving the survivors a good bonding event for the group's backstory.

 

[Mannahnin]

Pretty great thread! I love the idea of OSR, I'm just waiting for a game approaching the official game's solidness (as regards rules writing) - there's a large number of OSR games out there but either they go the minimalist route (meaning there just isn't much there) or they lose their way in labyrinthine subsystems and wonky (or nonexistent) game balance.

I guess I don't want to give up hope that it is possible to marry OSR sensibilities with actual depth and stability* to charbuilding. Perhaps I'm chasing a pipe dream though, and that it just isn't possible to reconcile my wish for characters with flaws and shortcomings with the idol worship inherent in the structure of D&D; its basic ubermensch mentality borne out of levels and hit points augmented by the fascinating minigame of charop.
*) For a value of "stability" that doesn't sacrifice OSR-y potions of mutation or garter belts of gender change, at least

There are a lot of them at this point. Definitely I think one of the virtues and weaknesses of the scene is the multiplicity of variations of "old school D&D with house rules". So it's difficult for any of them to gain widespread notability, but there are a lot of options to fit particular preferences and tastes.

Have you had a peek at The Nightmares Underneath? That's the one I'm most excited about lately. It has a LOT of neat overhauls and tweaks to the baseline D&D chassis. And there's a free edition available on Drivethru (the wonderful art makes paying for the full version worth it though, IMO).

 

[payn]

I am confused... People have no qualm whatsoever about buying dice sets by the bucket, until they are funky that is. Then, suddenly its like that 12 dollar dice set is asking them to take out a second mortgage.

 

[Reynard]

I am confused... People have no qualm whatsoever about buying dice sets by the bucket, until they are funky that is. Then, suddenly its like that 12 dollar dice set is asking them to take out a second mortgage.

7 sided dice?!? That's against gawd and man!

 

[TwoSix]

I guess I don't want to give up hope that it is possible to marry OSR sensibilities with actual depth and stability* to charbuilding. Perhaps I'm chasing a pipe dream though, and that it just isn't possible to reconcile my wish for characters with flaws and shortcomings with the idol worship inherent in the structure of D&D; its basic ubermensch mentality borne out of levels and hit points augmented by the fascinating minigame of charop.
*) For a value of "stability" that doesn't sacrifice OSR-y potions of mutation or garter belts of gender change, at least

Let me know if you ever find it. I've also been looking for years for a game that marries deep, customizable character generation with random, diegetic progression and OSR sandbox exploration, and it simply does not exist, as far as I can tell.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Let me know if you ever find it. I've also been looking for years for a game that marries deep, customizable character generation with random, diegetic progression and OSR sandbox exploration, and it simply does not exist, as far as I can tell.

I'm not quite sure what it means, but it sounds good ... however, if you want customizable character generation, it might not be a good idea to start with any kind of D&D, since relatively rigid classes - to me - look like the most persistent core element of it.
I don't now, without having played it, maybe "Forbidden Lands" by Free League achieves something along the lines? Or maybe there's some BRP game out there that does it (I'm not sure if I'm understanding "diegetic progression" right, but if it means "progression according to what happens in the game", than BRP is still among the systems that do it best) ...
Anyway, if someone find's that game, I'd love to hear about it, because while I can't quite picture what it would be, it sure would be interesting!

 

[TwoSix]

I'm not quite sure what it means, but it sounds good ... however, if you want customizable character generation, it might not be a good idea to start with any kind of D&D, since relatively rigid classes - to me - look like the most persistent core element of it.
I don't now, without having played it, maybe "Forbidden Lands" by Free League achieves something along the lines? Or maybe there's some BRP game out there that does it (I'm not sure if I'm understanding "diegetic progression" right, but if it means "progression according to what happens in the game", than BRP is still among the systems that do it best) ...
Anyway, if someone find's that game, I'd love to hear about it, because while I can't quite picture what it would be, it sure would be interesting!

It's difficult to explain, because there really isn't any existing system that does exactly what I'm looking for.

Basically, character creation has a lot of options. Could be classed, could be classless. But you start the game with a pretty strong identity, and several active and passive abilities.

But, from a metagame standpoint, what you start the game with is where your character defining choices are made as a player. Some of your abilities might advance slowly as you level, doing a little more damage or maybe gaining an extra use. But the bulk of your character progression is based entirely on what occurs within the game itself (that's the "diegetic" part), not from what the player picks at a metagame level. No higher level class features, no feats. At best, the player picks between multiple options that were granted from rewards found during play.

A character that started as a forest dwelling fighter/thief type might find a book of forbidden necromantic spells, learn how to raise the undead, apprentice under a lich, and end the game as the "Arch Necromancer of Terandria," because the player decided to have their character explore those options as they were presented in the game world.

 

[overgeeked]

It's difficult to explain, because there really isn't any existing system that does exactly what I'm looking for.

Basically, character creation has a lot of options. Could be classed, could be classless. But you start the game with a pretty strong identity, and several active and passive abilities.

But, from a metagame standpoint, what you start the game with is where your character defining choices are made as a player. Some of your abilities might advance slowly as you level, doing a little more damage or maybe gaining an extra use. But the bulk of your character progression is based entirely on what occurs within the game itself (that's the "diegetic" part), not from what the player picks at a metagame level. No higher level class features, no feats. At best, the player picks between multiple options that were granted from rewards found during play.

A character that started as a forest dwelling fighter/thief type might find a book of forbidden necromantic spells, learn how to raise the undead, apprentice under a lich, and end the game as the "Arch Necromancer of Terandria," because the player decided to have their character explore those options as they were presented in the game world.

Index Card RPG might scratch the character build and progression itch. It’s not a sandbox game per se, but can easily be plyed as one.

 

[TwoSix]

Index Card RPG might scratch the character build and progression itch. It’s not a sandbox game per se, but can easily be plyed as one.

I looked at it, but it was a little too lightweight for me. OSR/NSR style games tend to feature the idea of diegetic progression much more so than most other games, but they generally shy away from the medium complexity and player authority over starting character concept that I'm looking for.