DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[Parmandur]

That's a statement so often repeated when talking about DCC that I sometimes wonder if the game book should even have rules beyond funnel.

I understand that I can start with level 1 characters if I want, but it seems there's so much time and effort outside the book dedicated to the funnel gameplay that it makes a hard time for me to take the game serious beyond "killing fun house". And, to me, that's not worth the investment in a big book and weirder dice. I can run one-shot killing fun houses with the material I already own.

TLDR: DCC media focus so much on the funnel experience it fails to sell the game as something else to me.

The funnel is what to do for a one-shot, and to be fair you can get the basic rules and a funnel for free, and use an qpp for funny dice rolls on a oneshot. But there is more to the game beyond that: people get confused because it isn't actually an OSR game, it's a radical departure from a lot of D&D tropes in an attempt to simulate old pulp fantasy.

 

[overgeeked]

That sounds like a 'participation awards' sort of approach. I'm a big fan of the possibility of player defeat, but its not built into the system as a goal.

Not quite. It’s so that you’re not penalized for running away. You don’t have to fight to the death and win to earn experience. You’ll get more XP the more challenging the encounter, so a skin of your teeth victory nets you more than “technically” engaging then running away as a means of gaming the XP system.

 

[Ath-kethin]

That sounds like a 'participation awards' sort of approach. I'm a big fan of the possibility of player defeat, but its not built into the system as a goal.

I suppose you could look at it that way.

I see it as incentivizing solutions beyond "kill everything." And since the adventures tend to have encounters that are unwinnable if you charge right in guns blazing, but which have specific and achievable win conditions if you were paying attention, I find it to be pretty clever design.

One of the best parts of DCC IMO is the fact that approaching it as a hack & slash game is often the path of greatest danger.

It CAN be confusing and inconsistent at times. For example, one adventure has a roomful of skeletons that can be ignored entirely, but ignoring them makes the final encounter far more difficult. That kind of thing.

 

[Ath-kethin]

That's a statement so often repeated when talking about DCC that I sometimes wonder if the game book should even have rules beyond funnel.

I understand that I can start with level 1 characters if I want, but it seems there's so much time and effort outside the book dedicated to the funnel gameplay that it makes a hard time for me to take the game serious beyond "killing fun house". And, to me, that's not worth the investment in a big book and weirder dice. I can run one-shot killing fun houses with the material I already own.

TLDR: DCC media focus so much on the funnel experience it fails to sell the game as something else to me.

As others mentioned, the funnel experience is different from the higher level experience.

And by 5th level or so DCC characters start to get out of hand; by 7th or 8th level magic can trivialize any situation just like it can in any high level D&D campaign.

But it might not. That's a key difference in my opinion. Magic isn't ever 100% reliable, even for a character with godlike stats, so the wizard/elf can't always just bibbitty-bobbity-boo their way out of every encounter.

 

[overgeeked]

As others mentioned, the funnel experience is different from the higher level experience.

And by 5th level or so DCC characters start to get out of hand; by 7th or 8th level magic can trivialize any situation just like it can in any high level D&D campaign.

But it might not. That's a key difference in my opinion. Magic isn't ever 100% reliable, even for a character with godlike stats, so the wizard/elf can't always just bibbitty-bobbity-boo their way out of every encounter.

I think the common refrain is that DCC character levels are about 2x D&D 5E levels. So a 5th-level DCC character is on par with a 10th-level 5E character. But man, do I love the magic system. Mutations and spellburn. Patrons who actually want things from you instead of static background noise.

 

[Retreater]

I think the common refrain is that DCC character levels are about 2x D&D 5E levels. So a 5th-level DCC character is on par with a 10th-level 5E character. But man, do I love the magic system. Mutations and spellburn. Patrons who actually want things from you instead of static background noise.

I guess that checks out, because 2x0 still equals 0.

 

[Ath-kethin]

I think the common refrain is that DCC character levels are about 2x D&D 5E levels. So a 5th-level DCC character is on par with a 10th-level 5E character. But man, do I love the magic system. Mutations and spellburn. Patrons who actually want things from you instead of static background noise.

Exactly. And just like any high-level campaign, DCC games start to fall apart once you get about halfway to max level. That doesn't mean you can't play, and it certainly doesn't mean you can't have a fun game, it just means that the challenges need to change in order to remain, well, challenging.

DCC involves a LOT more dice rolling than many games, but in my experience it doesn't slow things down much if at all. And the unreliability of magic combined with the Mighty Deeds helps keep all the classes feeling relevant even at upper levels.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Not quite. It’s so that you’re not penalized for running away. You don’t have to fight to the death and win to earn experience. You’ll get more XP the more challenging the encounter, so a skin of your teeth victory nets you more than “technically” engaging then running away as a means of gaming the XP system.

I see. Myself, no matter what the system, I never penalized players for running away. But then, I don't give XPs for kills, either. I award XP on a 'effort+ intention +roleplay + a little for brown nosing' basis.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I suppose you could look at it that way.

I see it as incentivizing solutions beyond "kill everything." And since the adventures tend to have encounters that are unwinnable if you charge right in guns blazing, but which have specific and achievable win conditions if you were paying attention, I find it to be pretty clever design.

One of the best parts of DCC IMO is the fact that approaching it as a hack & slash game is often the path of greatest danger.

It CAN be confusing and inconsistent at times. For example, one adventure has a roomful of skeletons that can be ignored entirely, but ignoring them makes the final encounter far more difficult. That kind of thing.

I see. Myself, no matter what the system, I never penalized players for running away. But then, I don't give XPs for kills, either. I award XP on a 'effort+ intention +roleplay + a little for brown nosing' basis.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I love DCC RPG, but prefer DCC Lankhmar's Meet system to the Funnel. The irony is that when I started my DCC RPG campaign, the players all wanted to do the Funnel instead!

A good Judge keeps in mind that a Funnel, despite being supposed to kill off 75% or so of the characters, is supposed to be fun. People should be laughing at the horrible demises of their characters and cheering the improbable successes.