Dealing with logical but gamebreaking requests

[TheAuldGrump]

I handle it by making sure that if PCs would be able to obtain a 'logical request' then it won't break the game. Why add an artificial limit - if going into the newspaper morgue at the Sharn Gazette is something that they can do then prepare some clippings as a handout if you have the time.

If there is someone involved in the process that would be able to scry then the odds are that whatever he could learn should already be available. 'Oh, a scrying spell? Read page 3 of the report. One of the first things we tried, actually. It's how we know where to send you. Why aren't we doing it ourselves? Why don't you expendable meat shields tell us?' (Okay, maybe a little more polite, but most college professors really aren't Indiana Jones, or even The Professor from Gilligan's Island.)

A major Metropolitan University may or may not have the resources - what is the highest level diviner in the U? What is the funding like? (And won't a university that has the talent, but not the funding, to do something be happy about it? Fortunately subcontractors come from a separate budget. (Don't laugh... too common.))

The Auld Grump

 

[haakon1]

It's absolutely logical for the players (and by proxy the PCs) to want to exploit every possible resource, but obviously there's a need to maintain some balance when the market price of the desired ritual is higher than the PCs' combined wealth.

How do you deal with this kind of thing? "The sages are busy with more pressing matters"? (Even though one of their own was just kidnapped?)

How flexible are you with player requests like this? If the PCs are defending a town from goblin raiders, do you let them ask the town guard for a dozen soldiers to accompany them?

I would worry about whether the request makes sense in the setting:
-- Should the NPC be able to provide it?
-- Would the NPC want to provide it, or do they have other priorities?

I would NOT worry about "the market price of the desired ritual" and other gamist stuff. (Caveat, I'm a grognard, raised on AD&D and running 3.5e.)

Instead, I worry about role-playing the NPC's, and having a setting that makes sense.

So for the two requests you mentioned:
1) Can someone at the university cast a ritual to help the university? The answer would be "yes" and "good job" to the player who thought of it. He might even get some XP for smart playing.

2) Can we borrow a dozen town guards to help fight the goblin raiders? The in-character answer would be: "No, we don't have that many guards to spare. There are GOBLINS out there -- we need every guard to defend the town (I assume you actually mean VILLAGE here -- not a place with a population of thousands). However, if you'd like, there's a shepherd who knows the hills -- she might be able to help you find their lair." (The shepherd will drop out once the PC's reach the dungeon site, since she's only a Commoner or Expert.)

 

[haakon1]

Not to mention a visit from the town guard a few weeks into the potion sale, "Last night, we had a group of evil blood cultists raid a merchant's guild meeting, killing several wealthy merchants and their guards and making off with thousands in platinum and gold... one of the surviving guards said that even when they attacked the cultists, they would drink a potion and heal right up on the spot. We found a dozen of these potion vials with the markings of your deity on them. We're going to have to question you about supplying the evil cult with their healing abilities.")

Awesome, but I can't give you more XP.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Reading the 3.5 DMG recently, I came across a passage that deals with a similar issue.

Once you have a fictional game world and an adventure for the characters to start with, the campaign can begin. The most important purpose of a campaign is to make the players feel that their characters live in a real world. This appearance of realism, also called verisimilitude, is important because it allows the players to stop feeling like they’re playing a game and start feeling more like they’re playing roles. When immersed in their roles, they are more likely to react to evil Lord Erimbar than they
are to you playing Lord Erimbar.

You will know you have succeeded when the players ask you increasingly probing questions, questions not just of the depth of “What’s beyond those woods?” but such as “If the rangers around the wood keep such a close watch on the edges of the forest, how can the orc raiders keep attacking the nearby villages without warning?” When the players ask questions of that sort, they’re thinking in character. Don’t ever answer such a question with “Because I said so” or “Because I’m the DM.” Doing that encourages metagame thinking (see page 11). Either provide an answer, or ask how the character is going to go about finding out.

Occasionally, a player will see a loophole or inconsistency in what you have created. Use such an observation to your advantage rather than admitting that you’ve made a mistake. Make the quest for the answer a part of the adventure. When the players discover that the leader of the rangers is taking bribes from the orcs to look the other way, they will feel rewarded for asking the right questions, and they will trust the verisimilitude of your world that much more.

- 3.5e DMG pages 129-130

It takes a surprisingly strong line on this, stronger than I would take. Personally I think it's perfectly okay for the GM to admit mistakes. But 3e loves its verisimilitude.

 

[haakon1]

Great quote. That's why me loves me some 3.5.

 

[Kzach]

What happened to the good old days, when princes and princesses married their cousins?

Where do you think the oozes came from?

 

[Kzach]

I'm still reeling, I think, from the idea of "scrying" being a 24th level ritual! lol. I know, I know, levels in 4e are very different from what I am accustomed to/experienced with. "Rituals" in general are something I do not have a firm grasp of (versus "spell" use, I mean). "Locate Object" was a 3rd level clerical spell, iirc. "Is there a 5th level cleric in the house?!" lol. How about a 5th level mage/MU/wizard with "Clairvoyance"?

And look how many problems they caused!

The two things I love about the Ritual system are:

1) Hardly anyone uses it.

2) When they do, they find that all the really powerful stuff like scrying is really high level and really expensive... yay!

 

[Lord Captian Tobacco]

Who moves the world?

[/quote] You're seeing yourself as a referee arbiting the PCs efforts, not as an entertainer or storyteller nor as a gamist game-master providing in-game tactical challenges.

Not that I mind, I just thought I'd point it out. It seems you think this is the "only" or "natural" way to resolve such "player foolishness". IMO, it is actually a pretty extreme style of gamemastering.[/QUOTE]


The examples shown were extreme ends. Feedback and reactions to the players actions (or lack thereof) are the only way to make the world live and breath.
I suppose that the princess could have remained a captive for a year or more awaiting rescue. The do-dad really wasn't that necessary for the survival of the kingdom. If the heroes fail to deliver the notice from the king, well, it really isn't going to change anything.

Or will it?

Depends on how the world moves or remains stagnant at the will and demands of the players. I have found that in the longer duration games, the players expect the world to change even if they are not involved.
How else does the princess find her prince? how else would the GM know what clues to drop well in advance, concerning the planed kidnapping of the same princess in an effort to start a war, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Starfox]

And look how many problems they caused!

The two things I love about the Ritual system are:

1) Hardly anyone uses it.

2) When they do, they find that all the really powerful stuff like scrying is really high level and really expensive... yay!

4E - how to up the FX and lower the utility?

 

[S'mon]

Fortunately subcontractors come from a separate budget...

Thanks for the morning laugh, I needed that!

Yeah, I work at a University; I just love how we can put students up in £120/night hotel rooms, but have a zero budget for getting them to the hotel. Or: we have unlimited printing, but when it comes to photocopying we members of staff are allowed a grand total of 500 pages a year...