Dealing with UMD

[Talonblaze]

We've noticed through playing and through numerous other sources that those who sink into the UMD skills make the game quite troublesome in many cases. (IE: Fighter with Shapechange, congrats you win.)

I was kinda curious, how do you guys deal with UMD? Do you simply outright ban it? Limit it? Or take it in stride with the effects it poses in the game? Since it becomes more about who can pump into Cha and pull of the skill the quickest and the fastest.

Thoughts, ideas? Is it as broken as many claim and seem it to be?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I was kinda curious, how do you guys deal with UMD?

UMD abuse requires the following ingredients:

1) a player willing to try to abuse UMD.

2) a DM who supplies the party with UMD abusable magic items.

3) a dearth of PCs already able to use magical devices.

By way of example, our current 3.5Ed game doesn't have enough items in it that would be abusable that aren't in the hands of other PCs who are already capable of using them.

Besides, what's the real harm? Is a Fighter who can shapechange any more dangerous than a Druid? I bet the optimizers would say no.

 

[Talonblaze]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]

Well its usually the case when one person uses it ALOT and then others start to see it and want to as well.

The main thing is, its not always the DM supply. Whats to stop players from making scrolls to give people or other items normally they couldn't use?

Kinda defeats the line of what makes class features different than others since UMD also eliminates that. After all, you give a Chalic meant to be used solely for a Cleric to benefit him and the Fighter uses it instead. Or other racial things as well.

You'd basically have to restrict alot of things that typically would be available to the normal classes just to avoid UMD abuse.

Also note we use 3.X items and feats generally so there's more material to work with than normal for both PC's and DM's.

There's also a pretty large difference between optimizers and those who aren't set on breaking and abusing the system. Just making good chars and having a good time. But there's always that one. UMD just makes it far easier.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

UMD is inferior to just being a spellcaster to begin with.

 

[Talonblaze]

UMD is inferior to just being a spellcaster to begin with.

Well, UMD allows more than just being able to use wands or scrolls. IIRC it allows one to use items with powers for specific races, classes (or class features) and essentially anything that might have to do with you being something else or not having.

The difference between a Druid and a Fighter being Shapechanged is one gained such through class levels and abilities to gain and earn it, also under the restrictions of their abilities in that regard. UMD eliminates almost all of that for a Fighter. Just invest in a skill and done. Plus you get the bonus of wearing stuff the Druid couldn't due to restrictions.

As the saying goes for most forums, to optimize a monk, don't be a monk. Why be a fighter is all your going to do is throw wands at your enemies?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well its usually the case when one person uses it ALOT and then others start to see it and want to as well.

Let 'em argue with the actual spellcasters for the devices. See who wins- there can't be enough for EVERYONE.

The main thing is, its not always the DM supply. Whats to stop players from making scrolls to give people or other items normally they couldn't use?

XP costs, for one. Other crafting supplies. GP cost. Crafting takes campaign time, during which the crafter can't do much of anything else...like adventuring.

I don't know about YOUR players, but nobody in our group plays a spellcaster in order to stagnate his own progress in order to kit out the party.

(FWIW, the only person remotely resembling an optimizer in our group routinely plays mages. As in 85% of his PCs since I met him in 1985. And with essentially the same spell list for each one except his 4Ed one.)

UMD eliminates almost all of that for a Fighter. Just invest in a skill and done. Plus you get the bonus of wearing stuff the Druid couldn't due to restrictions.

No it doesn't.

SRD on UMD In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

IOW, you still have to have significant skill points invested in UMD- and thus, significant levels- to have a decent chance at doing so. The fighter who wishes to emulate shapechanging for purposes of using a magical device? He's getting very few skill points per level, and its a cross-class skill for him besides: he'll be significantly high in level before his emulation of druidic shapechange is even remotely dependable.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

What you are describing as a problem, I encourage as an asset. The Cleric is helping the Fighter do more than he normally could? The Rogue is casting spells from a wand and supporting the wizard? Variety and diversity is occurring? This is exactly what I WANT to see my players doing.

For fun One-shot game I designed a Fighter and gave him a feat that made Perform a class skill (I forget which), kept him with max ranks Perform (String), and gave him all the instruments in Magic Item Compendium that cast spells when you play them. He was a healer, party buffer, battlefield control spellcaster, and a pretty standard kick-butt Fighter.

This is a good thing, IMHO.

 

[Talonblaze]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]

Well in most cases, the only thing is the XP. Since from what I see from most people 'optimizing' the cost for scrolls and the like never seems to be an issue for them compared to the power.

Secondly, they don't need to emulate a class feature to use Shapechange. Just get a scroll and cast. The extra bonus from this is that they have no need to worry about wearing armor when using the scroll since UMD doesn't seem to worry about ACF or the likes. Even so divine casting wouldn't be a bother anyways. Unlike a Druid who doesn't have much in terms of armor and restricted to types.

Besides, good charisma, skill focus and such make it easier even for a cross class.
Plus, its not just for spells either after all. The Fighter could also wear druid specific gear to enhance such.

[MENTION=6674868]RUMBLETiGER[/MENTION]

In cases like that, such things are usually fine. Since its covering weak areas. But in this example, what if the Rogue instead used Shapechange (seems to be a common thing). Why would you need a Fighter or any other tank class of raw power?

It's almost noted in most cases especially for dueler's that UMD is REQUIRED solely for this. You depend less on your party when you can merely obtain it for yourself.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well in most cases, the only thing is the XP.

And the cost of materials. Either at the time of creating the scroll or the casting of the spell from it, you're going to incur the expenses of whatever materials are required for it. A scroll of Stoneskin isn't cheap as paper- you have to buy that diamond that is consumed in its casting.

 

[kitcik]

First, let me say that I am firmly in the camp of "melee classes having UMD is NOT a problem."

Why would you need a Fighter or any other tank class of raw power?

It's almost noted in most cases especially for dueler's that UMD is REQUIRED solely for this. You depend less on your party when you can merely obtain it for yourself.

Here, you are talking about UMD, but that is the tip of the iceberg.

The tip didn't sink the Titanic.

The iceberg is that full casters can easily make melee classes & skill monkeys obsolete at mid to high level. If you allow full casters, then let the other guys have their day with UMD.