Dealing with UMD

[Talonblaze]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]
I suppose this is true, but its usually calculated into most scroll costs anyways for most average players.

Was mainly noting that other than the XP, buying and making the scroll aren't much different. Even those casting it have problems with the materials.

But besides the smaller added fee, a non-magic user with UMD doesn't need components as its figured into the scroll cost.

@kitcik

Well isn't that why they have their own magical gear, feats and abilities? So far we haven't seen too much inbalance due to such with this case as the characters who focus usually tend to focus on such more to improve on such. (Monks, kinda get the short end of the stick obviously.)

Just heard of alot of negative things about UMD abuse. Even caster's use it to cast things from other classes and such to make them even more powerful.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just heard of alot of negative things about UMD abuse. Even caster's use it to cast things from other classes and such to make them even more powerful.

A full caster is basically the most powerful thing in the game: if your party contains both an arcane and a divine full caster, there really isn't much call for them to take UMD.

If your party lacks one of those, and the gap is filled by a character with UMD, you as DM are ahead of the game, because in no way is a PC with UMD as much of a handful as a full caster.

If you have no full casters- only half-casters and PCs with UMD, your party may be underpowered.

Really, "UMD abuse" is not so much of a game-breaker. Usually, it gives a PC one or more good tricks, but nothing actually broken.

 

[Talonblaze]

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]

Hrm, well I am mostly a player, not a DM. This issue arose when someone was discussing it. To us it seemed like it was quite over the top.

Plus we heard UMD is usually banned by most or limited. Which if what is said is true, why? If its not so bad, or hardly any benefit why do most do so?

Our DM hasn't banned it yet, but he's looking for material as to do so, or not. Hesitant to restrict it if things get quite out of hand. Preferring balance. Our group just seemed to find it silly that its possible for my Paladin to pick up the wizards prepared scrolls, use the skill and cast it without any other knowledge or levels regardless of the level.

(Also, if a higher level spell than the party caster level is obtained, couldn't a UMD technically allow them to cast it prior to even full casters being able? IE: 4 Rogue with +10 [+7 ranks +3 cha] UMD would only need a 26 to be able to cast Fireball before the Wizard? Seems a tad silly.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Plus we heard UMD is usually banned by most or limited. Which if what is said is true, why? If its not so bad, or hardly any benefit why do most do so?

What you hear may not be true. Personally, we don't ban it, and I've never heard of a
anyone doing so. I'm not saying it doesn't happen- I know some people ban Paladins and Monks- so it's possible people ban or curtail UMD.

But when you really look at it in the context of actual spellcasting classes? It really isn't something to worry about.

 

[HoboGod]

UMD is only trouble in the hands of somebody who uses it for some big-bang trump card. Yes, the low rogue who uses their all their gold to buy a few scrolls of a high level spell can seriously ruin the danger and excitement of your "final" encounters. But, that same rogue is running around with sub par magic items and other equipment that makes the denizens a much greater drain on the party because the rogue can barely contribute. And if the rogue uses those trump cards foolishly to where they run out, the rogue loses any effectiveness entirely. At which point, you as a DM have three choices: 1. let the party suffer and most likely die because your encounters where designed for a fully contributing party, 2. scale down the monsters and permanently slow the pace of the game, or 3. integrate some Deus ex Machina that helps the rogue into appropriate level magic items and hope he doesn't repeat the same mistake down the road.

However, UMD when used to allow a PC to fill an emergency niche is a wonderful thing! The party is hurt and needs a secondary healer? A cheap cure light wounds scroll does the trick. A pack of blink dogs have made all but the wizard of any real use? Not if that wand of magic missile has a few charges left in it.

 

[Talonblaze]

@Dannyalcatraz

Well I suppose in that case it seems fine to allow the use to stand up to spellcasters a bit more especially in later levels, but what about the 'wear and use anything' attribute to the skill? Especially when it gets higher in levels? Racial restrictions won't matter (especially despite the logic in some cases) and the class ability thing is usually only a slight hamper since most key abilities are early on anyways.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

By the time it gets to that level, you're talking about a PC who has sunk a huge chunk of his resources into doing so, while a full caster could mimic or exceed his best efforts with a single spell in his or her repertoire.

Don't believe me? Ask Dandu, Thanee or one of the real system masters.

 

[Dandu]

We've noticed through playing and through numerous other sources that those who sink into the UMD skills make the game quite troublesome in many cases. (IE: Fighter with Shapechange, congrats you win.)

I was kinda curious, how do you guys deal with UMD? Do you simply outright ban it? Limit it? Or take it in stride with the effects it poses in the game? Since it becomes more about who can pump into Cha and pull of the skill the quickest and the fastest.

Thoughts, ideas? Is it as broken as many claim and seem it to be?

Read.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Speak of the Devil and He shall appear!"

Dandu, I followed the link and got a "Server is too damn busy to deal with your piddly request" error.

Do you have one of your typically pithy and succinct summaries on tap? Like maybe "UMD's not broken."

Or shorter?

 

[Talonblaze]

Link works fine, reading it now.

The forum occasionally does that. Simple refresh works most times.