Death Effects

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've only seen an effect like that once (and it did kill a PC). However, it was a Fourthcore adventure that broke the guidelines (because it's fourthcore, of course). The victim had to make two immediate saving throws, and if they failed both, they died right there. The attack was an AoE!

IMO, a death attack is kind of cheesy. There should be ways around it. I saw a post on the charnel firehouse (or whatever it's called) on another forum, as an example. It's a brute with a melee attack that inflicts ongoing fire damage. If it downs an opponent, it immediately gets to attack them again. So the victim, already at 0 hp or below, gets hit again (by a brute's attack), and if they weren't taking ongoing fire damage, they are now. Watch the party scramble to save the PC! Thing is, the party might be able to do it. They can try to heal the PC, or put out the flames/give another saving throw, etc. On the other hand, the raging battle might prevent it. The cleric was dazed and fighting for his life from a zombie swarm, or something.

There are a few death effects. The catoblepas and orcus adept (not entirely sure about the latter's name) can inflict penalties to death saves. However, they cannot by themselves (without doing damage, that is) inflict the "death" condition. A death priest working with an undead brute would be a terror; the brute can drop a PC, and then the death priest can get near, while also trying to shut down the PCs' leader(s). Fear of death, risk of death, but not unstoppable sudden death.

 

[the Jester]

I've probably ran about 10 battles that have effects like this and to date it's never worked. As such I like the mechanic because it adds that element of threat to the PC's, but it's also realistic to overcome.

I should also note that I've never seen a PC die from damage either. In my history of playing 4E it's either PC's win as a group or die in TPK. There's no such thing as losing only one character. Which is admittedly a tad bit disappointing.

Heh... I guess as the OP, I should probably also note that I killed another pc the week before.

Though admittedly, before these two, nobody had died in a long time. Since the warden's previous pc, actually.

 

[Unwise]

The save vs death effects are a bit of a let down for me. The main problem is that there is not necessarily anything the PCs can do to aid the victim. Personally I take "second failed save" to mean the next save at the end of the turn, not a save that was granted to you. Otherwise abilities that are designed to help your friend can actually kill them. Do most people play it that way?

On a side note, the monsters that PCs seem to fear the most for me are ones that can swallow the PCs. Anything that breaks line of effect to the healer is pretty great at getting kills. Animals that are happy to just leave once they have swallowed someone are particularly terrifying.

Trying to stop a giant frog getting back to the swamp with the victim still in its mouth is very stress inducing to the PCs. A dragon that just swallows, or even grabs, then flys away is terrifying too. The last scary animals I used were a pair of crocidiles that emerged from a swamp, attacked (Grab+Prone) then just proceeded to drag the victim back into deep water. Once beneath the surface, the party could not even see them without diving down themselves.

A personal favourite is the Nedrazuul (sp?) demons that grab you then teleport you 10 squares away. Set up properly they can be used to abduct PCs in very interesting ways. For instance, grab the PC, then disappear out an arrow slit to the ground outside the tower. If the other PCs don't have a teleport then they will spend a very long time getting to there to help. Another funny move is when they work in tandem, one teleports them back to an intersection, then another teleports them from there down a corridor. Breaking line of sight/effect to the rest of the party and putting them 20 squares away.

 

[the Jester]

The save vs death effects are a bit of a let down for me. The main problem is that there is not necessarily anything the PCs can do to aid the victim. Personally I take "second failed save" to mean the next save at the end of the turn, not a save that was granted to you. Otherwise abilities that are designed to help your friend can actually kill them. Do most people play it that way?

No; I believe that there is a rule that extra saving throws never make things worse. Or rather, "Failed Save" effects don't trigger from extra saves.

I suppose you could still make things worse with an extra save- if the victim made it and there's a worse "Aftereffect".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There are rare effects in the game along these lines: Hit: X damage, and the target cannot regain hit points/cannot spend healing surges (save ends). There are also creatures with auras that reduce or even eliminate healing.

I designed one NPC I've yet to use who can take away the victim's ability to recover hit points. That can be restored with a Heal check... but that's a standard action. That might be too mean, since a downed PC is a player not doing anything for a round or two, and that can be several minutes. It's a way to deal with a flood of healing.

 

[Jhaelen]

Not yet. As a player I dread encountering them, though, since I recently broke a record by failing no less than ten saving throws in a row

In the end it took the help of three of my allies and all of the party's healing potions to prevent my pc from dying...

 

[donpaulo]

I only play 4E after a 20 year break from the hobby, but its my understanding that you need to fail 3 DC normal saves to die. As long as you continue to make the saves you don't die.

I found it to play really well in combat as there isn't a burning need to rush over to help a fallen comrade if you know you have a few rounds before the pedal is really pushing the metal.

As far as 4e goes I think not having the interrupts really helps smooth game play. Then again I am not comparing it with an earlier system that I grew to enjoy and have loads of toons that I enjoyed playing. I also exclusively play via fantasy grounds...

In about a year of gameplay not one character has died from failing 3 saving throws, but some have come very close

 

[the Jester]

I only play 4E after a 20 year break from the hobby, but its my understanding that you need to fail 3 DC normal saves to die. As long as you continue to make the saves you don't die.

I found it to play really well in combat as there isn't a burning need to rush over to help a fallen comrade if you know you have a few rounds before the pedal is really pushing the metal.

>snip<

In about a year of gameplay not one character has died from failing 3 saving throws, but some have come very close

That's all correct for "You're out of hit points and dying" death saves, but I was referring more to "Hit: Take ongoing 10 (save ends); First failed save: Ongoing 10 and weakened (save ends both); Second failed save: You die" type death saves.

Have you encountered those yet, [MENTION=6693231]donpaulo[/MENTION]? They are rare- and therefore scary, IMHO- in 4e.

 

[donpaulo]

That's all correct for "You're out of hit points and dying" death saves, but I was referring more to "Hit: Take ongoing 10 (save ends); First failed save: Ongoing 10 and weakened (save ends both); Second failed save: You die" type death saves.

Have you encountered those yet, @donpaulo ? They are rare- and therefore scary, IMHO- in 4e.

yes it is scary. My toon has died twice in the last 3 sessions once from ongoing damage.

However in that session, ongoing damage was stopped by the GM once I died. So the toon sat at negative HP and rolled about 3 times before someone else was kind enough to help me.

Perhaps a house rule worth considering ?