Death Saving Throw: Roll 20 or higher, spend surge then?

[bryanlo]

IMO, this is a side effect of the critical hit rules. You have to roll a natural 20 to score a crit. Getting a "spend a healing surge!" result on a death save is a very similar mechanic that triggers when you get a 20. Therefore, players draw the logical inference that a natural 20 is required even though the rules do not actually say so. If you'd asked me, I could not have stated with confidence that you didn't need a natural 20.

I think the game designers would have been best served to write it as requiring a natural 20 and then build in specific exceptions for feats that grant death save bonuses: "You get a +5 on death saves, and can spend a healing surge if this results in a roll of 20 or higher."

As things stand, they're screwed no matter what they do. If they fix the death save system to match the critical hit system, or remove the "healing surge on 20" rule altogether, they'll confuse players who've gotten used to the current system.

I think it's clear enough. In the online Compendium it says "20 or higher." and there is no mention of crit.

 

[Dausuul]

I think it's clear enough. In the online Compendium it says "20 or higher." and there is no mention of crit.

Taken by itself, the rule is quite clear. Problem is, its operation ("awesome stuff happens when you roll a 20") is very similar to the much-more-frequently-invoked critical hit rule, and so people naturally get the two mixed up; hence Sigfile saying he was constantly encountering LFR and Encounters tables where people thought you needed a nat 20.

As a general principle of game design, if lots and lots of people are getting the rules wrong, there's something wrong with the rules. Often it's a problem with the presentation, which is not hard to fix. Sometimes, as here, it's an issue with two rules that are almost but not quite the same. This presents more of a challenge--the obvious fix is to adjust the rules so that they actually are the same, but then you create more confusion for people who've mastered the distinction and now have to learn that there isn't a distinction any more. (Case in point: Fighter combat challenge versus opportunity attacks.)

 

[bryanlo]

I'm not sure how they would fix it tho. It's a saving throw, right? And those never crit anyway. The only way for people to stop misinterpreting this is to change how saving throws work.

I think people should just look up rules, it's not difficult. If you have trouble convincing LFR and Encounters people, bring a copy of the Rules Compendium.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm not sure how they would fix it tho. It's a saving throw, right? And those never crit anyway. The only way for people to stop misinterpreting this is to change how saving throws work.

Well, yeah. That's what I mean by "adjust the rules so they actually are the same"--make it so that you need a natural 20 for awesome stuff to happen. Of course that changes the operation of feats that grant a death save bonus.

I think people should just look up rules, it's not difficult. If you have trouble convincing LFR and Encounters people, bring a copy of the Rules Compendium.

If you look up every rule every time you use it, the game is going to slow to a crawl. Obviously, somebody who knows the rules can bust out the rulebook and correct people's misconceptions, but that's a second-rate solution. Better to have rules that don't encourage misconceptions in the first place.

 

[Insight]

Well, yeah. That's what I mean by "adjust the rules so they actually are the same"--make it so that you need a natural 20 for awesome stuff to happen. Of course that changes the operation of feats that grant a death save bonus.


If you look up every rule every time you use it, the game is going to slow to a crawl. Obviously, somebody who knows the rules can bust out the rulebook and correct people's misconceptions, but that's a second-rate solution. Better to have rules that don't encourage misconceptions in the first place.

Its better that the rules are intuitive. There should be lots of "this rule works like rule x" than forcing memorization or constantly needing to reference the books.

 

[Mapache]

I'm not sure how they would fix it tho. It's a saving throw, right? And those never crit anyway. The only way for people to stop misinterpreting this is to change how saving throws work.

I think people should just look up rules, it's not difficult. If you have trouble convincing LFR and Encounters people, bring a copy of the Rules Compendium.

Yeah, even if you change this rule, skill checks are still different, because there's no auto-success on a 20 or auto-fail on a 1. Plus, requiring a natural 20 to get up, then putting an exception in every feat, power, or other rule that modifies it seems ridiculously inelegant. (Granted, if people are getting it wrong frequently, I could see such powers adding MtG-style reminder text that isn't actual rules, just a restatement of them.)