Deathbringer's CR17 - merited?

[Kalendraf]

Last night my party encountered a Deathbringer (MM2). The party currently consists of 6 characters of 12th to 14th level. According to the Deathbringer's CR17 rating, this should have been a fairly challenging battle. It wasn't. Even though the monster went first, the party shredded this thing in less than 2 full rounds of combat while barely taking any damage themselves.

Looking thru the abilities of this creature, I'm really wondering how it even merits a CR17 rating. Its AC is a bit high, but it's far from being unhittable. Its hit points aren't bad, but at this level, those won't last long. It's own damage output isn't that high. Meanwhile, it's 2-most touted abilities - an area affect negative energy burst maxing out at 18 damage/18 heal for undead, and it's greater dispel - are not that scary.

Does the Deathbringer really merit CR17? Am I overlooking something about this monster's capabilities? Did I DM it badly? All I know is that a later battle against a CR11 monster was way harder than this...

 

[Rackhir]

Well you haven't said much about the encounter, but it sounds like it just waded in to melee. Single monsters rarely last long up against multiple opponents like that. Parties at those levels generally have lots of buffs going, the fact that it has a greater dispell magic ability indicates to me that it should probably have been sniping and harrassing with the GDM to knock down their buffs and supress magic items to weaken them before closing.

 

[the Jester]

Remember, first of all, that your party is larger (and therefore more powerful) than a standard party of four. I'd call it the equivalent of a 15th level party (as a guess).

Remember too that an equal-CR encounter isn't really supposed to be a big challenge, but rather to use up 20% of the group's resources.

Soooo... my question is, how much of the party's resources got used up in this fight?

As Rackhir pointed out, your tactics may well have been off. I had a big encounter a couple of years ago that included a pair of deathbringers. My group forcecaged them (the version with the bars) and then winced as, every round, they used targeted greater dispel magics to weaken our heroes against their other enemies.

 

[darthkilmor]

I don't have my MM2 with me but, does it have any DR ? Even if it didnt' , i could see a valid tactic as gdm the lead warriors weapon and then trying to sunder it, assuming it does decent enough damage to destroy your standard sword-type weapon in a full attack. Also it could have used gdm to counterspell something tossed at it. Kinda hard to say for sure without more info but seems like you probably could have at least annoyed the players a fair bit with it

 

[Corsair]

This is a common theme throughout MM2. The vast majority of them are over-CR'ed, if that makes sense. The pendulum swung back the other way with MM3.

 

[Kalendraf]

I'm running an adventure from an older Dungeon Magazine (exact name of the adventure eludes me). In this encounter, the Deathbringer begins standing motionless inside of a summoning circle, apparently trapped. As per the adventure guidelines, it waits until the party gets close, then suprises them by attacking, revealing that it's not really trapped (or summoned). Not necessarily a strategy I'd normally use, but given the fact the creature is more melee-based and would prefer to have it's foes group up, it seems like a viable tactic.

Party monk approached it, while the rest of the party hung back spaced out somewhat at about a 30' distance. They didn't know what it was for sure, but assumed it was likely held in the circle. Eventually, after enough characters were close enough, it began it's attack. I could have begun the battle with greater dispel, but it would have only dropped 1 spell at most (greater magic fang on the monk). The party position made the trample attack fairly useless, so the best option appeared to be a 5' move + full attack at the monk which is what I had it do. It connected with 2 of the attacks for fairly low damage.

The druid responded with a hefty flamestrike. The monk, rogue and barbarian mostly missed. The bard sang the "+2 song", and I think the cleric also used a flamestrike. After that was over, the deathbringer had taken approximately 60 damage (out of nearly 200 hp), so it wasn't too bad off.

Next round, I could have had it use it's negative energy burst, potentially hitting 4 characters for 10+1d8 damage (iirc) and healing itself for a like amount. But the better option at this point seemed to be another 5' move to engage the druid via 10' reach with another full attack. It connected on all attacks, dishing out sizeable damage, but the druid has a really high con, so it really didn't hurt him that badly. In retrospect, I likely could have power attacked for even more damage and still hit, but even I had done this, I don't think I would have done enough damage to drop the druid in this attack.

During the party's next round, the druid unloaded another flamestrike, and this time the rogue, barbarian and monk landed a majority of their attacks (thanks in part to the bard's song). The combined damage from all of this was sufficient to drop the monster. The battle ended before the bard or cleric even got their 2nd turn action.

Looking back, given the adventure's setup here, I really don't see any easy way to make this monster live more than 2 rounds, nor any ways for it to deal significantly more damage than it did (aside from the power attack possibility I mentioned which didn't make any difference in the final outcome). Had it elected to negative burst on turn 2, it would not have lived any longer, and the only major difference would be that it would have damage 4 targets for meaningless points rather than focusing it's damage on a single target.

The party didn't use anything unsual in the way of tactics, spells or abilities, nor did it seem to get unusually lucky. Given the results of this battle, I just do not see how the Deathbringer merits a CR17.

 

[darthkilmor]

If i dont understand gdm properly, correct me but, couldnt you have counterspelled one of the flamestrikes ?

It seems like possibly a better tactic would have been to hit and run with the negative energy burst, trying to keep the warriors out of reach and counterspelling anything thrown at it. except for the monk, which with 200 hp it could ignore for a few rounds and still be ok.

 

[Kalendraf]

Remember, first of all, that your party is larger (and therefore more powerful) than a standard party of four. I'd call it the equivalent of a 15th level party (as a guess).

Yup, I know that.

Remember too that an equal-CR encounter isn't really supposed to be a big challenge, but rather to use up 20% of the group's resources.

Which would be the case if the monster was CR15. The Deathbringer is listed as a CR17. A +2 delta on the CR vs. party's equivalent level is supposed to indicate a challenging fight.

Soooo... my question is, how much of the party's resources got used up in this fight?

Not much. 13th level druid used two 4th level spells. 12th level cleric used one 5th level. The damage dealt by the monster was cured using a few charges from an inexpensive wand of vigor. Overall, I'd say it was maybe 5% of party resources.

Given the party's level, I'd say the monster challenged them about like a CR13 probably would normally.

i could see a valid tactic as gdm the lead warriors weapon and then trying to sunder it

Good luck sundering the monk's hands

Also it could have used gdm to counterspell something tossed at it.

Would have required dropping to a readied action once the fight began. In the process, the warriors would have ripped it apart. Doesn't seem like a logical tactic in this situation.

This is a common theme throughout MM2. The vast majority of them are over-CR'ed, if that makes sense.

From my experience last night, that would definitely appear to be the case here.

 

[Garboshnik]

I'd have to agree. Contrary to what his name implies, the Deathbringer doesn't really bring that much to the table. I'd say a CR 13 sounds about right.

 

[Eloi]

He should have probably tailed the party until they got stuck into something relatively hairy, then jumped the Cleric.

Evil doesn't mean "mindless".