Deathless and the clerics who worship them

[Arcadio]

More specifically, I'm confused about the (Eberron) Deathless domain.

The Deathless domain in only (as far as I know) available to clerics of the Undying Court. Clerics of the Undying Court revere the deathless and get their power from the deathless who have moved on into the afterlife. So why do they have so many spells that can only be used against the deathless?

The Deathless domain's granted power lets a cleric trade one use of turn undead for a greater rebuking against deathless. The 3rd level domain spell is Halt Deathless, and the 7th is Control Deathless.

Not all of the domains spells are anti-deathless, there are plenty of spells that help or create deathless. But if the deathless are intelligent, good, worshiped ancestors, why would a cleric ever want to rebuke, halt, or control one? Do the deathless sometimes get out of line, so the clerics have to be there to control them?

To me, these three anti-deathless powers don't seem to fit the domain.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Deathless domain in only (as far as I know) available to clerics of the Undying Court. Clerics of the Undying Court revere the deathless and get their power from the deathless who have moved on into the afterlife. So why do they have so many spells that can only be used against the deathless?

There's your error.

Specifically, in the ECS, the source of clerical magic is ... unknown. Vague. Your cleric may believe that he gains his powers from his undying ancestors, but that's not necessarily true.

The Deathless domain's granted power lets a cleric trade one use of turn undead for a greater rebuking against deathless. The 3rd level domain spell is Halt Deathless, and the 7th is Control Deathless.

Which make sense. Greater Rebuking lets the cleric command a group of deathless. His domain spells represent an increasing control over deathless - including their creation.

But if the deathless are intelligent, good, worshiped ancestors, why would a cleric ever want to rebuke, halt, or control one? Do the deathless sometimes get out of line, so the clerics have to be there to control them?

That's a good question, huh?

And are you absolutely sure that what I've highlighted above is strictly true in all cases?

 

[Arcadio]

Specifically, in the ECS, the source of clerical magic is ... unknown. Vague. Your cleric may believe that he gains his powers from his undying ancestors, but that's not necessarily true.

...

And are you absolutely sure that what I've highlighted above is strictly true in all cases?

Thanks for the response, and good points.

So then it seems that whatever the source of the Undying Court's divine magic is (the dead deathless, the head of the church, the collective faiths of the clerics, or whatever,) doesn't trust the deathless.

The assumption I was making is that the clerics believe that their power comes from the dead deathless, and that the deathless are all good and worthy of being worshiped ancestors. If that is the case, then I would think that any cleric of the Undying Court would appalled at the thought of memorizing or using one of their anti-deathless spells, and probably confused at those being available to them at all.

But maybe the clerics of the Undying Court are aware of problems with the deathless that the rest of Eberron aren't.

 

[Henry]

Actually, I think it's a case of them being RESPONSIBLE for perpetuating the deathless, and because they know how to make them, they also know how to "shut them down."

Kind of like how Cannith Artificers are responsible for the warforged, yet they also have loads of "Inflict Damage" infusions and spells that would either build a Warforged up, or tear him apart.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The assumption I was making is that the clerics believe that their power comes from the dead deathless,

They probably do. Either that, or the same source that allows them to create the deathless. After all, *someone* created the first deathless, right? (And for what purpose? Duh duh DUHHHHNNNN!!!)

and that the deathless are all good and worthy of being worshiped ancestors. If that is the case, then I would think that any cleric of the Undying Court would appalled at the thought of memorizing or using one of their anti-deathless spells, and probably confused at those being available to them at all.

Well, what is the Deathless' purpose?

I'd imagine that, at some level, it's to support and defend the Aerenal elven race. I'd posit that, for most part, the deathless do this. At least, the ones living in the Citadel on Aerenal do.

However, there've been a lot of Clerics of the Undying Court over the years. I'm sure some of them went off, elsewhere, doing their own thing (especially given the ECS's rules on corrupt clerics). I'll be at least one of them created some servitors. Who's to say what *they've* been up to in the intervening centuries?

But maybe the clerics of the Undying Court are aware of problems with the deathless that the rest of Eberron aren't.

Kinda makes ya think, huh?

 

[Staffan]

Thing to remember is that while the Undying Court is made up of a host of really powerful Ascendant Councilors, not all deathless are ACs. Most just serve as undying soldiers, and I'm sure there are a bunch of intermediate deathless we haven't seen yet. Creating and controlling these are what most of those domain spells are for.

 

[lukelightning]

Yeah, what Staffan said.

Also, we real-world people don't know the metaphysics of D&D/Eberron magic. Perhaps the power to rebuke/command the deathless and undying (and the similar spells) are just an inherent outgrowth of having the Deathless domain; like the cleric isn't taught "do this to control the undying" but rather "through your understanding of the inner nature of the deathless and positive energy you know how."

There is that feat in Races of Eberron that allows you to swap your deathless domain power for another power that lets you recall a spell.

p.s. I love the Aerenal elves/undying. Eberron made elves cool again.

 

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, just what we needed, Goth Elves.

Nothing can make elves cool.

 

[Klaus]

Keith Baker responded to this over at WotC's boards.

In short, a cleric of the Undying Court won't rebuke or command a deathless lightly, but he *is* a representative of the Undying Court, and sometimes he will need to exercise his authority over lesser deathless.

For instance, maybe a squad of Undying Soldiers have been charged with defending a tomb against all intrusion. But a cleric of the Undying Court has to get in in order to retrieve an item that is needed to stave off an invasion by the Blood of Vol. As the soldiers move in to attack the cleric, he brandishes his symbol of the Court and says: "Honored guardians of the past, before you stand a true servant of the Court. Heed my words and put down your weapons!"