Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire

I really don't like the feeling of being on the same side of an issue as you DocM.

On a side issue(since this topic has seen enough hijacks, why not one more)-

If you could have any part of the aSoIaF world written out into a supplement, then what might it be?

I would like the maesters(spell?) and their organization written out. It seems like such a cool idea for a d&d organization- and I like the symbolism behind the more they learn.. the more chains they must wear.. representing a forced humility that comes with the knowledge.

SD

I cannot really answer your question. I am one of the people in a previous thread who bashed this series of books for having no true characters I cared about. I got about 2/3rds of the way through and decided that if every character listed to date had been slowly tortured I would root for the torturer in every case but Jon Snow.

At that point I put the book down and have not picked it up again.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice &

At that point I put the book down and have not picked it up again.

Aww, I would think you are just saying that to make me feel better, but I can feel the balance of the universe back - we are opposed once more. *chuckle*

SD

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice &a

Aww, I would think you are just saying that to make me feel better, but I can feel the balance of the universe back - we are opposed once more. *chuckle*

SD

Come my friend over to the darkside. All will be fine.

 

[Dagger75]

Thats okay Doc, I picked them back up and started reading them again.

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire

If you could have any part of the aSoIaF world written out into a supplement, then what might it be?

I would like the maesters(spell?) and their organization written out. It seems like such a cool idea for a d&d organization- and I like the symbolism behind the more they learn.. the more chains they must wear.. representing a forced humility that comes with the knowledge.

SD

I think I'd just want a full map and detail of all the exotic locales hinted at and mentioned, but not dwelled on. Asshai, Braavos, etc.

 

[jdavis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire

I really don't like the feeling of being on the same side of an issue as you DocM.

On a side issue(since this topic has seen enough hijacks, why not one more)-

If you could have any part of the aSoIaF world written out into a supplement, then what might it be?

I would like the maesters(spell?) and their organization written out. It seems like such a cool idea for a d&d organization- and I like the symbolism behind the more they learn.. the more chains they must wear.. representing a forced humility that comes with the knowledge.

SD

I have high hopes for the Dragon magazine with the conversion rules for aSoIaF. I'm sure I will be horribly crushed but I am hoping they will touch on some things like the Maesters and the church organizations.

 

[nikolai]

Which brings up another thing that has nagged me about the series. What the heck happened to the whole Targaryen family? Surely there were many cousins, etc? Were they all slaughtered? We know that Maester Aemon was allowed to live.

If I remember correctly the Targaryens married their sisters/brothers. Persumably this would have kept the family tree suitably pruned!

Nikolai.

 

[nikolai]

To go back to the original post:

Over the recent past I've heard given, as a weakness in Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire" series, the fact that there are no true heroes or people to root for. I think it's time to set the record straight, as it were, on that issue. I'm going to give my list of "good guys" from the series, and I'll stack them up against any pollyana "black and white" - "good vs. evil" fantasy story. Please note that there could very well be SPOILERS ahead...

...Also, I'd like to hear any rebuttals of the characters I listed. Are there any reasons you can think of that they would not be considered, on the whole, particualry heroic?

I've read the series-so-far recently (after reading about it on the boards - so thanks to those who've posting on the topic in the past). I think saying that there are no true heroes, though it isn't completely true, does touch on something that makes A Song of Ice and Fire different from a lot of standard fantasy. I've also heard people cite this as a strength of the series and not a weakness, so it does all depend upon taste.

What I think is good about the series is that it is very far away from the pseudo-Tolkien, quests, ancient evils, uber-warriors etc. that dominates much of the modern fantasy I see in book shops. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this style, but much of the stuff written it is derivative and cliché and I for one am bored with it.

The way A Song of Ice and Fire is more a collection of story arcs linked together around a central theme rather than "Evil is rising in the form of A, hero B must do C in order to save the peoples of D" makes it different. I know people might bring the Others up here, but they haven't really been a major part of the story yet (as opposed to the Wildlings attack) and, at least so far, the story has centred around politiking for the throne of Westeros.

A lot of the conventions of heroic fantasy have also been rejected. Though there are "good" characters there aren't the sort of ultra-talented heroes you'd find in say, Edding or Gemmel (I'm sure people with a greater breath of reading in fantasy than me could fill in more details), or as clear a good/evil divide as is found in much fantasy.

I think that’s what people are trying to express when they say there are “no true heroes”. To compare it to LotR there's no-one as bad-ass or noble as say Aragorn, for example. That's certainly not a criticism of either series - since they're aiming for completely different targets. But I think it does make ASOFAI very different from other LotR-cloned “fantasy epics”. I found that very refreshing.

I don't think it is as good as Tolkien - but it is somewhat reminiscent of Tolkien in the way strands of a story are woven together from different characters POV and some of the complexity of the background. If you haven't read it I'd certainly recommend it.

yours,

Nikolai.

 

[Endur]

AA Reborn

From the way Martin described the scene with Maester Aemon discussing Stannis' fiery sword, I received the impression that Stannis' sword is NOT the real sword of legend. And therefore Stannis not the hero reborn of legend.

But that Stannis himself doesn't know that.

Also, for heroes, many of the dead characters qualify: Ned Stark, Robb Stark, the Old Hand, etc.

Tom

I'm surprised at the number of people who discount out of hand the fact that Stannis is AA reborn. We know so little of the prophecies, R'hollar, The Other, etc. that it's just possible Stannis is 'Da man. My view on this is "hold all bets". Martin can surprise people, can he not.

 

[Dr. NRG]

Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire&quo

...

In my opinion you never recover your alignment from a murderous act like that. Never.

I'm curious whether this works both ways. If you do some ultimately good act, like saving a whole city from being destroyed (or pick your own ultimately good act), are you permanently good? Can you never lose your perma-good status? Never?

Leaving good and evil aside, I'd argue that Jamie is chaotic, Btw. The very act you cite is a prime example of an impulsive personality.

NRG