Decline of RPG sales

[WizarDru]

GVDammerung, please let me just say that I strongly agree with your take. Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast has adopted an apparently successful business plan, offers perhaps the highest production values, can mount the biggest strategic marketing effort - and so far this year, I purchased one WotC title, because I find most of their products to be bland and rote, "fifty-one flavors of vanilla," not worth the cover price for the two or three bits that I might actually use when I play.

So basically you're saying "Well, Wizards may be making a good chunk of change...but not from me." Are you implying, then, that if they produced more stuff you liked that their sales are sure to improve? Because I've bought 10 WotC titles this year, not including the D&D minis I've purchased. I'm not saying they couldn't change their material to appeal to you (and I won't say that every book has had equal value for me)...but clearly they're not suffereing from their current strategy.

For that matter, how many non-WotC RPG books have you purchased this year?

 

[Sebastian Francis]

Other than the one company whose name I never can remember but is easily confused with a producer of quality games (FF....something), I don't know where you're seeing this tide of d20 garbage.

Check FATDRAGONGAMES' sig.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

www.financialsense.com is very good site if you want to stay up on what's going on behind the scenes of real life, and who's literally stealing from your vallet everyday because they print and lend more money on the markets.

LITERALLY? You mean someone is *literally* pulling my wallet out of my back pocket, removing money, and putting it back without me knowing it? EVERY DAY?

Wow!

(Or maybe you meant 'figuratively'?)

 

[SBMC]

GVDammerung, please let me just say that I strongly agree with your take. Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast has adopted an apparently successful business plan, offers perhaps the highest production values, can mount the biggest strategic marketing effort - and so far this year, I purchased one WotC title, because I find most of their products to be bland and rote, "fifty-one flavors of vanilla," not worth the cover price for the two or three bits that I might actually use when I play.

So basically you're saying "Well, Wizards may be making a good chunk of change...but not from me." Are you implying, then, that if they produced more stuff you liked that their sales are sure to improve? Because I've bought 10 WotC titles this year, not including the D&D minis I've purchased. I'm not saying they couldn't change their material to appeal to you (and I won't say that every book has had equal value for me)...but clearly they're not suffereing from their current strategy.

For that matter, how many non-WotC RPG books have you purchased this year?

Well said WizarDru.

Shaman:

Exactly what is not bland to you?

Like I said - WoTC is after creating options; environments, monsters, etc for you to build your world with or incorporate into one of theirs. If you equate "that is not my style" with "garbage" then you are essentailly insulting everyone who bought any such publication. I think they do a darn good job at trying to put something out there for everyone in a format that is open and non-restrictive (as a setting as it stands is). I can takle aspects from 10 books and blend them into my own world; all because they are not exclusivly part of something else. My world is mine - marketing says that is what the majority wanted; you are in the minority.

I doubt that anyone would buy all their books right at print (including me); but if they have enough out there for long enough you might. The books are for reference and if you play long enough you'll probably use most of all of them in part or whole (unless you play the same setting/environment forever) - most worlds have deserts, seas, mountains, jungles...dwarves, mountians, giants, etc.

Anything you do costs money - gaming included. People go to bars and drop 50 bucks on beer in a night without blinking an eye; you can buy a book for half that and have it for decades - less the intestinal issues and hangover. People will go skining for 10 times that in a weekend - gamers like to game that is our recreation and social life; or at least a part of it.

If one thinks things are overpriced; perhaps you should find a new hobby that is less costly. There is a reason I do not own a collection of vintage muscle cars, Rolls Royces and/or Ferraris (or even one of any of those!).

 

[helium3]

College students playing poker a) no longer have time to play rpg's and b) no longer have the money to spend on them. I play on several of the online poker sites and they are crawling with college kids and I'm not talking about guys playing for nickels and dimes. So if they're spending $100+ per week playing poker, and in a lot of cases much more than that, guess what they're not spending their money on.

Their education?

 

[GVDammerung]

So, unless your'e trying to objectively prove that there's a lack of good product out there, your hypothesis is: "There's a decline in RPG sales because there's not much out right now that I like." . . . Campaign settings do not expand the market. Campiagn settings are only of use to people already in the market. All campiagn settings do is cannibalize sales from other campaign settings. . . . So, it's marketing, not settings, that matter. . . . This is anecdotal and illogical. . . . It makes more sense than your argument.

Do you find other publishers' material to be "bland and rote"? Do you see them all striving to release producs that are "bland and rote" because that's supposedly what WotC is doing? That's the idea GVD is putting forth.

Our discussion is now subject to the law of diminishing returns. I have failed to articulate my point sufficient for you to grasp it (let alone agree with it) beyond a point where you misconstrue me and the move is toward merely repeating or rephrasing what has gone before with more vigor. Suffice then to say we are of differing viewpoints and do not agree. Enjoy your sunny skies. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[The Shaman]

Do you find other publishers' material to be "bland and rote"? Do you see them all striving to release producs that are "bland and rote" because that's supposedly what WotC is doing? That's the idea GVD is putting forth.

I don't think that's what being argued at all - I believe you're missing the point.

The argument is that Wizards of the Coast's 'safe' strategy produces vanilla books which sell well, but that doesn't make them particularly 'good' (read: innovative and interesting, moving the hobby in new directions) unless one defines quality by sales figures.

There seems to be a boom-and-bust integral to the gaming 'industry' - a new product is released, people snap it up, more product is released, fewer and fewer people buy it, and so a new edition is released, and the process starts all over again. I believe that it would be healthier for the cottage industry that is RPGs if the focus was on creating sustained growth, rather than simply trying to ride out the rough patches until the next boom rolls around.

Now WotC seems to have figured this out, but while they're the industry leader in terms of business planning, they seem to think that this also means playing to the lowest common denominator most of the time: "Okay, people like Jedis and the Force from Star Wars, so let's turn that into a 'new' magic system and new classes for Dungeons and Dragons!" "Great idea!" And so the dreck of Incarnum was born.

I also don't agree that everyhting WotC releases is blah, but that's another issue.

You're right - some of it's completely execrable.

So basically you're saying "Well, Wizards may be making a good chunk of change...but not from me." Are you implying, then, that if they produced more stuff you liked that their sales are sure to improve?

No, I consider my tastes pretty far outside the mainstream.

However, I'm still capable of weighing a book on its merits as an RPG resource, and comparing it to similar products from other publishers, even if it doesn't appeal to me personally or is something that I plan to use in my own games. WotC products rarely deliver the same level of innovation that third-party publishers provide, even when it's the same authors working on the respective WotC and third-party books. To me this reflects a middle-of-the-road design strategy that permeates WotC's decision making, one that I find produces bland books.

For that matter, how many non-WotC RPG books have you purchased this year?

Including .pdfs, about a dozen.

 

[helium3]

Please do not make this a discussion about politics in the real world.

Heh heh. Yes. We only want to discuss politics in the pretend world. But I know what you mean.

 

[buzz]

Enjoy your sunny skies. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

OKey-doke. Enjoy fantasyland.

 

[helium3]

The problem I face in these discussions is that when I present a "big picture" view, I get criticized for a lack of raw numbers or objective data. But then when I then present specific data, or a methodology for studying the market by analyzing verifiable facts (such as the rate of new releases as reported in distributor weekly receiving e-mails over an extended period of time), I get criticized for presenting raw data rather than the big picture. Hrm.

That's exactly what it's like when trying to talk about Psionics on these boards in the "is psionics unbalanced?" threads. The fundamental mistake you're making is in expecting a coherent, logical discussion. We don't do that here at ENWorld. Instead, we like to get into exceedingly passive aggressive (lest we get banned) flame-wars with people we disagree with where we say things like "clearly", "obviously" and "from my perspective."

And yes, I agree that it's silly for people to be surprised that sales have decline over time. There's this thing called the business cycle. The primary product of the d20 market is the core players handbook and attendent rule books. Any major product advances are going to come out of refinement of those products, so it's pretty much up to WOTC to drive that. Product advances that came out of other publishers would have to either come in the form of a new, competing game system to d20 or entirely knew gaming technology.