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Define "___-edition feel"?

Axegrrl

First Post
What, exactly, gives something "first-edition feel"? What qualities do you look for before you describe a module, setting, or whatever as having "first edition feel"?

What about "second-edition feel"?

Or "third-edition feel"?

What are the characteristics of each of these?

I ask because I'm getting confused about it. I played 1st ed from when it came out until about 1984. I played 2nd ed for about a year circa 1989 -- when they had the main "complete {class}" guides out, but before they did the races books. I've played 3rd ed for a couple of years, and the characters are around 7th-9th level. In total, I've been in four different campaigns, and they've all felt pretty much the same to me: dungeons, wilderness, random encounters, more dice rolling than character interaction. So what are the differences between the "*-edition feel"s?
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Axegrrl said:
What, exactly, gives something "first-edition feel"? What qualities do you look for before you describe a module, setting, or whatever as having "first edition feel"?

Having never actually played 1E, but having quite a few 1E products, to me, the feeling of First Edition (bearing in mind that "feeling" for all of these is in how the modules are constructed, not necessarily the feeling of actually playing them, which is what you seem to have described) is "basics". Dungeons are just there, with little backstory, and virtually no hooks for why the characters go to them (that's the DM's milieu). Most encounters tend to be direct. Some characters do lie, and use magic to disguise themselves or their intentions, but this tends to be somewhat rare, and when it does happen, it usually only lasts for several rounds, long enough for the NPC to get into an advantageous position and attack. Never ever trust a beautiful female NPC who seems flirtatious - she's a vampire or succubus or whatever. Beyond the three core books, very few options are present. Variety is meant to come from the actual role-playing, not in the form of diversified mechanics.

What about "second-edition feel"?

Complex, in mechanics (which is bad) and story (which is good). Representing a dramatic shift from 1E, 2E wanted to weave tapestries around everything. Modules had rich backstories to them, even though many times the PCs would never get to find out about them. Complex world histories became important, not necessarily in the game, but in products as they kept building on various campaign worlds. Events from some products get mentioned in others. Rules proliferate madly in a creative frenzy, with less oversight given to their power levels relative to each other. Free from the relative inflexibility of 1E, 2E represents a feeling of pushing new boundaries wherever it can, and creating overarching stories between products many times. The consequences, from a mechanical standpoint, tend to be overlooked however.

Or "third-edition feel"?

So far, it feels like the happy medium between the two. Third Edition realizes that the various module cross-overs creates an entangled web that intimidates newcomers to the game. Likewise, the existing discrepancies in power between so many products that create new rules cannot be allowed to stand. At the same time, simply retreating back into the rigidness of 1E is of little use either, since most 3E designers remember how that evoked the 2E explosion of rampant creativity.

Thus, 3E tries to simplify things across the board, but only in terms of the basics, leaving areas open to individuals to make more of certain features of the game, but using an existing framework so as to keep power levels balanced. Third edition encourages players and even other companies to make new spells, races, prestige classes, feats, etc. but provides the framework for doing so so that none of them lead to the brokenness present in 2E. Interlinked stories in modules are, for the most part, necessarily abolished. Third edition goes out of its way, sometimes too much so, to make every product stand alone (though lately its eased up on that). With the new spirit of "we've given you the frame, you do the rest", multiple campaign worlds for different genres are no longer necessary, freeing up company resources; alongside modules being independant of each other, most are now independant of a setting as well. Products now attempt to introduce the same combo of new rules and great storyline from 2E, but this time done without being overpowering. Third edition feels like a box of puzzle pieces that can be arranged many different ways, so that the same picture is never formed twice.
 
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EB3

First Post
Alzrius, that's probably the best summary I've seen of the different "feels" between the editions. For my part, it seems that the first two editions were following general industry trends. First edition was the child of wargames, which didn't require much background information, detailed rules, set-up (you meet in a tavern to explore the dungeon), or push the inter-character role-playing. Second edition was more into selling settings and splat book suppliments. The "tapestry" line describes it best. But, if a DM couldn't figure out how to fit the characters into the tapestry or just didn't like the picture, you were left feeling, well, left out. Also, 2e played with the rules, making them generally more complex and tried to make new rule changes with through supplements.
I think that 3 &31/2 are better than both former additions as the basic rules make sense, are simple, encourage role-playing, and are still expandable (for those interested) with plenty of supplements. And there are plenty of settings for those groups looking for a tapestry...
 

Psion

Adventurer
Re: The topic.

I think in reality, it's really quite subjective. It seems obvious to me that what some players think of as first edition feel doesn't match my 1e gaming experience, which was in actuality quite story intensive.

Re: this:

so that none of them lead to the brokenness present in 2E

:lol:
 

rounser

First Post
"basics". Dungeons are just there, with little backstory, and virtually no hooks for why the characters go to them (that's the DM's milieu). Most encounters tend to be direct.
Nah. For example, the Dragonlance and Battlesystem modules fly in the face of this pigeonholing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a reasonable assumption if you're not familiar with 1E, but probably best not to assume...
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
1st edition: I felt like I was 11 without anybody to play D&D with.
2nd edition: I felt like I was 16 without anybody to play D&D with.
3rd edition: I felt happy becuase I was playing D&D with people.

That's it, in a nutshell.
 

DMScott

First Post
Most of the time when "first edition feel" is tossed around, it seems to actually mean "Pre-FR/Dragonlance feel in adventure design". From a marketing standpoint, that meant products were usually only loosely related to each other. Adventures were location-based and didn't refer to any larger setting; usually they were dangerous places that PCs could approach as tactical problems, roleplay content and story context was left to the group and DM to insert as appropriate. There was an "anything goes" atmosphere, so things like setting an adventure in a crashed spaceship or having PCs stripped of their possessions and dumped into a maze were fine so long as it lead to a fun standalone adventure. The aliens would never appear again and the PCs would only be inconvenienced for a short while before getting their stuff back, and that was good enough.

FR and Dragonlance, later in the first edition days, changed that and the change permeated through (and for many people, defined) second edition. Marketing-wise, the setting and metaplot became more important. Roleplay and story concerns moved into the adventures, which became more like interactive fiction than locations for adventure. Canon became a critical part of TSR's marketing - many special rules and new products were driven by things the novelized versions of NPCs could do that broke the rules.

Third Edition, IMHO, draws from a second edition trend - the Player's Option and Complete Whatever books - which was kind of a reaction against metaplots and "special" NPCs. This trend was towards putting more and more tools in the hands of the players, and concentrating on codifying the way a campaign world works. Of course, 3rd edition usually spends more effort on balance than the PO books did (it'd be hard to spend less ;) ). There's also a corporate shift, in that WOTC seems to see rulebooks as their real money maker and publishes adventures and settings only as necessary to drive rulebook sales.

Because of this, 3rd edition doesn't really have a feel in the same way 1st and 2nd edition did, since feel seems to be driven by settings and adventures and WOTC has basically farmed out much of the setting/adventure work.
 

Bendris Noulg

First Post
rounser said:
Nah. For example, the Dragonlance and Battlesystem modules fly in the face of this pigeonholing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a reasonable assumption if you're not familiar with 1E, but probably best not to assume...
This is true... Also, 1E experienced a lot of changes over the course of time. For instance, compare, say, Tomb of Horrors (early 1E release featuring 1 dungeon only) to the Desert of Desolation (later release featuring an expansive desert, several "dungeons", primary quest requires solving a puzzle that overlaps all three modules and requires interacting with various NPCs, and so forth). 2E simply continued from this later point, but was also presumptive of amount/style of role-play (if you RP'd the "proper way", it worked, if not, it broke; while I favor heavy RP-centric games, this was rather presumptious of the designers, and many of the presumed courses of action often had the PCs solving the adventure early or left them utterly stumped). And, of course, this didn't stop some adventures from having that earlier 1E quality (such as Shattered Circle).

2E modules also differed from setting to setting; For instance, Dark Sun adventures were typically brutal and combat intensive, as fit the setting, but were almost never "dungeon oriented", while Planescape pushed more towards role-play because that Pit Fiend sitting next to you at the bar would turn your 3rd Level PC into pulp if you got too uppity on him.

That said, I'd say that there is no "1E Feel" or "2E Feel", as there were many different "feels" to each of them. For instance, if something is plugged as having that "1E Feel", are they talking about Adventure-Only (Tome of Horrors) 1E, mini-series (Temple of Elemental Evil) 1E, or mini-saga (original Dragonlance) 1E? From that perspective, saying something has that "1E Feel" doesn't really tell me anything (no offense to Necromancer Games, but it is one of the most unimaginative sales pitches I've seen to date, and, having seen several of their adventures, I'm not in total agreement that it's even true).
 

Vocenoctum

First Post
Bendris Noulg said:
That said, I'd say that there is no "1E Feel" or "2E Feel", as there were many different "feels" to each of them. For instance, if something is plugged as having that "1E Feel", are they talking about Adventure-Only (Tome of Horrors) 1E, mini-series (Temple of Elemental Evil) 1E, or mini-saga (original Dragonlance) 1E? From that perspective, saying something has that "1E Feel" doesn't really tell me anything (no offense to Necromancer Games, but it is one of the most unimaginative sales pitches I've seen to date, and, having seen several of their adventures, I'm not in total agreement that it's even true).

From what I've seen, First Edition Feel seems to apply Tomb of Horrors to the entire spectrum. So, you get totally unbalanced CRs, as well as save or die stuff at very early level. None of it has the same feel as Temple of Elemental Evil for me.

I regard temple of elemental evil as very iconic of 1st edition. It had a plot full of evil doers, a big dungeon full of folks to sneak up on and kill, people to save, etc.

For me, 2e Feel ended up being "world shaping novels and epic events that your players get to tag along to watch while NPCs do everything" :)
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
From an old interview with Clark Peterson regarding First Edition Feel (and Necromancer Games):

Clark: First Edition is the cover of the old DMG with the City of Brass; it is Judges Guild; it is Type IV demons not Tanaari and Baatezu; it is the Vault of the Drow not Drizzt Do'urden; it is the Tomb of Horrors not the Ruins of Myth Drannor; it is orcs not ogrillons; it is mind flayers not Ilithids (or however they spell it); it is Tolkien, Moorcock, Howard and Lieber, not Eddings, Hickman, Jordan and Salavatore; it is definitely Orcus and the demon-princes and not the Blood War; it is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound not Elminster's Evasion; and it is Artifacts and Relics from the old DMG (with all the cool descriptions).

I always say we want to be the VW Bug of roleplaying companies, meaning that we want to have a modern style and appeal but an obvious link to the past. One of the ways we do that is how we design the modules. For example, we use full color covers (not that funky mono-color of the old modules). But our modules have the same basic format of the old modules—inset art, module number in the upper left corner, diagonal band in the upper left corner, logo placement, etc. I guarantee you, when you look at one of our modules you will flash back to the old ones—just like when you see a new VW bug. And hopefully you will say "Man, that is just like an old module except cooler."
 

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