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Defining "old school" by vote

What defines “old school” D&D style?

  • PCs played as characters with distinct personalities

    Votes: 25 19.7%
  • PCs used as playing pieces with no real personalities

    Votes: 42 33.1%
  • DM as antagonist

    Votes: 53 41.7%
  • DM as referee

    Votes: 61 48.0%
  • DM as lead story teller

    Votes: 13 10.2%
  • Dungeons with no “ecological” sense, just full of monsters to slay

    Votes: 81 63.8%
  • Adventures with backgrounds and plot

    Votes: 25 19.7%
  • Vast treasure hoards and plenty of magic items

    Votes: 44 34.6%
  • Sparse treasure and rare magic items

    Votes: 39 30.7%
  • Vast campaign worlds for the PCs to live and grow in

    Votes: 32 25.2%
  • Continuous dungeons for the PCs to crawl and hack through

    Votes: 61 48.0%
  • Byzantine and arcane rules

    Votes: 58 45.7%
  • Easy and lite rules

    Votes: 27 21.3%
  • Years on a calendar (dates when material was published)

    Votes: 48 37.8%
  • Years in the gamer’s personal age (age at which he started gaming)

    Votes: 21 16.5%
  • Years in a gamer’s gaming experience (first few years of playing the game, regardless of age)

    Votes: 14 11.0%
  • Playing adventures published by TSR

    Votes: 42 33.1%
  • Playing adventures created by the DM

    Votes: 29 22.8%
  • Generally good

    Votes: 39 30.7%
  • Generally bad

    Votes: 25 19.7%

Ariosto

First Post
The "DM as antagonist" characterization, which in my experience is typically negative, may be due to misunderstanding -- or simply disliking -- the approach to the game as a game dependent on a combination of skill and chance and with a significant strategic aspect.

In a truly competitive game, much of the challenge and interest comes from dealing with the other side's attempts to win. At the opposite extreme, we have the view of the DM's role as one of helping players along, preventing disappointments that might be seen as "losing".

The original conception of the referee's role is not invested in any outcome. It is to offer a range of challenges, with (in game terms) associated risks and rewards; let players choose what to undertake; and then adjudicate fairly, favoring neither the players nor "the world".

Player choice is a key factor here. They can stay on the first dungeon level, or go down to the sixth. They can proceed haphazardly or with a plan; with daring or with caution; seeking fights or seeking to avoid them; and so on.

"Here's the scenario, where you must go and what you must do; go to it" is an accommodation to practical considerations of convention (especially tournament) play. Tournaments in particular are most easily and objectively scored on the basis of how far from the starting point bodies fall. To make the comparison of different teams' performances on as uniform a basis as possible, a fairly linear scenario is generally desirable. As the purpose is to test players' skill, random factors should have minimal influence. Tomb of Horrors splendidly fulfills all those criteria!

Having signed up for a convention game, one should expect (or at least not be dismayed by) something along those lines. Usually, one is going to play a pregenerated (and probably pre-equipped) character; in any case, the "one shot" is something quite apart from the campaign.

When the campaign itself loses its old character and becomes a mere series of just such DM-determined situations, the DM really does have some blame to take for outcomes. If it's not my choice to go through the Gauntlet of Devious Death Traps or get into a fight with the Monster Unvanquishable Save by One Magic Item, but rather the DM's decision, then the question of what's "fair" gets a bit askew.

When the expectation is of being told a story in which "the heroes" survive and triumph, their meeting ignominious ends in the "first act" is clearly unacceptable. If the expectation is of telling such a story as an "author", then the DM's contrary story-telling may be even more offensive.

Neither expectation is really compatible with playing a game in which the fortunes of pawns hinge on a combination of skill and chance to the extent that "failures" and even "deaths" are to be expected in the regular course of affairs.
 

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avin

First Post
"Dungeons with no “ecological” sense, just full of monsters to slay" best definition, no surprise it's winning :)

Have to say that 4E encounters (as per MM) sound a lot like this.
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
In my experience, the play style has nothing to do with old school. It's quite true that you can use anything from OD&D to 4e for any sort of game along the continuum from the brainless sandbox dungeon-hack to the deep-immerson collaborative story. What differs, IME, is the degree of customization that goes into character creation and advancement.

Old school games are games where the characters are generated organically (i.e. with dice), and they advance on a more or less predetermined path, with minimal chances on the part of the player to alter that path with options (i.e. proficiency slots, dual-classing).

New school games allow customized character creation and advancement (point-buy abilities, CP for "skills & powers", feats, prestige classes, daily/encounter/utility powers, etc.). Characters can be "built" like a Magic the Gathering deck, and "combos" can emerge from selecting features that synergize well.

Put another way, old school doesn't allow very many options for min/maxing, but new school pretty much expects that characters will be "optimized" to succeed at the mechanical aspects of gameplay (read, combat encounters... plus the occasional skill test, if the DM is throwing a bone to the rogues and bards).
 

Quantarum

First Post
To me "old school" is those heady days when no one really knew what they were doing. Middle school kids opening the old red box and rolling up a haphazard collection of dungeon delvers, pure nostalgia. Trying to recreate that feeling is like trying to recreate your first kiss (though unlikely to get you tagged as a sex offender). ;)

-Q.
 


Orius

Legend
Interesting to note: Out of 97 voters, 33 said “old school” is generally good, and 15 said “old school” is generally bad. That leaves 49 who didn’t vote either way – 51%.

Probably because play style doesn't make a game good or bad, but rather the quality of the DM and players.
 

Burrito Al Pastor

First Post
I'm kind of delighted to see such aggressively inconclusive results.

I had to select "DM as adversary" because "module writer as adversary" wasn't available. A lot of the most old-school modules I'm familiar with (and I'm chiefly thinking here of Tomb of Horrors, Maure Castle, and Ravenloft) are often aggressively unfair, and present more than a few options for PCs to suddenly and unexpectedly die through no real fault of their own.

Speaking of which, I would have to select "extreme ease and speed of character creation" as another criterion of old-school gaming. Possibly also "unfair".
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
So, do you think the term "old school" should be dropped from conversation? Since it seems its definition can't really be agreed on by anything even approaching a consensus. Its use seems more to cause confusion and conflict in a discussion than to guide it.

One person says "old school" as a compliment, another uses it as an perjorative. And they might be thinking of the same aspect, or they might be thinking of opposing aspects.

Bullgrit
 

pawsplay

Hero
To me, the Golden Age is from 1974 to 1984, which includes everything from Tunnels & Trolls to Rolemaster to Basic D&D Marvel Super Heroes. After that, the landscape changes considerably. DC Heroes and TMNT appeared in 1985, and Advanced Marvel Super Heroes in 1986. Bard Games published The Arcanum in 1984 but Talislanta 1987. Similarly, Rolemaster went from being a rules expansion to being its own game.

From 1985 to 1991 is a time of a lot of development, experimentation, and both successes and failures in marketing. In 1991, the old school of gaming comes to an official close with the publication of Vampire: The Masquerade.

Blog post that touches on this, "How D&D Became GURPS":

EN World D&D / RPG News - pawsplay
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
So, do you think the term "old school" should be dropped from conversation?
Definitely not. I still haven't seen even one good reason to, throughout many a thread and discussion.

One person says "old school" as a compliment, another uses it as an perjorative.
And yet another uses it simply as a descriptor. Shock, horror, I know. But it's true.

And that's how it's best used. To describe an entirely real, and often relevant phenomenon/quality. Those slinging it around as code for 'this r0xx0rz' or 'this suxx0rz' would do better by not using it at all, or alternatively, by learning to use it properly. But the fact that there are some out there misusing terms doesn't mean I or anyone else has to just drop said terms from our vocabularies.
 

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