Definition of Helpless and Coup de Grace

[Jeffrie]

Help me out a bit and tell me how you allow these interpretations at your table, please.


A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target).


Coup de GraceAs a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent.

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Here's my question. If you are invisible and silent and the opponent is awake and standing/etc, but totally unaware of your presence, can you then perform a coup de grace?

What if you are in disguise and he is sitting at a desk with his back to you?

thanks

 

[Talonblaze]

According to RAW, no. Since he is not helpless in any regard at all. Just unaware. That's is why they are denied their dexterity bonus. For catching them off guard. The same is the one for the disguise.

If he was in any of the typical states needed, then yes, he would be eligible. (Though probably wouldn't need to be invisible.)

Rogue's typically utilize such tactics since it gives them Sneak Attack, but past that, unless house ruled I don't see it doing anything quite so full out.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I think of a helpless helpless person as one who can't reflexively react to defend himself in any way for whatever reason.

The unaware person can react to some degree (reflexively ducking, lashing out, etc) and can conceivably still foil an attack, even an unexpected one. He's not considered helpless and can't be coup de graced.

For the situations you describe, I'd ordinarily handle it with a surprise round, assuming the target fails the perception or sense motive check that would tip him off to the threat.

 

[Jeffrie]

So what does the rule mean when it says "or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."? Give me some examples of that besides the ones listed.

Let me point out that i am not talking about an opponent who is in battle or otherwise aware, but one who is clearly flatfooted and distracted. I believe armor is still included.
So it seems to me that a high level target would have up all defenses. They should have walls, armor, alarms, allies, divination, deflection, scent, blindsight, nondetection, etc, going all the time, or quite fighting demons and necroliches and assassins.

Also is a touch attack considered a melee weapon?

 

[Talonblaze]

@Jeffrie

There are a few other ways to make a person helpless. Grappling in some fashion I think can make one helpless if a third party is involved. also some fear effects render you immobile. As well as petrification or some gaze attacks. The part that section is referring to is any other abilities that might render a character helpless beyond the traditional methods.

Also don't forget powerful characters also have magical effects on them, which also could be a reason to hinder the effects. It's really up to the DM to explain why, but the fact the character IS able to move leaves enough room to effectively foil any sure blow. For instance he was in a chair and you raise your dagger, he could at that moment just stand up to get a drink and then your well executed neck stab turns into a mid back one. Just an example of flair. But I'm sure there's more notable explanations.

If the touch attack required in the instance does use melee methods, like grapple, unarmed strikes or incorporeal melee weapons. Touch itself is not technically a weapon, but the melee weapon used in it is (in most cases).

 

[Jackinthegreen]

No standard fear effect puts a target in a helpless position. If you're thinking of the Cowering condition, then it's defined differently from Helpless at the very least by its effect on AC shown on page 151 of the PHB.

 

[Talonblaze]

@Jackinthegreen

Ah, well that example probably wasn't the best then. Guess the only saying 'paralyzed with fear' doesn't apply in most cases of D&D.
But was mainly just getting the point across that there is many other ways to make a character helpless.
But this is by 'standard' speaking. There might be creatures who have such abilities.

 

[Arrowhawk]

So what does the rule mean when it says "or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."? Give me some examples of that besides the ones listed.

Well, perhaps the game designers were thinking of someone on their knees who has just surrendered. The captives are neither paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, or unconsious, but their captors could come up behind and slit their throats. Essentially anyone who simply does not resist for whatever reason. If someone is willing to die, it wouldn't make sense to force the slayer to continually whack at them.

It may also include someone who is in a trance like state and unaware of their surroundings, but not sleeping.

But judging by your OP, I suspect you're wondering why you can't just come up behind someone and slit their throat when you're invisible? My guess is because the game designers don't want it to be that easy or make inviso that powerful.

 

[Jeffrie]

But judging by your OP, I suspect you're wondering why you can't just come up behind someone and slit their throat when you're invisible? My guess is because the game designers don't want it to be that easy or make inviso that powerful.

Not quite, but sorta, and yes that is my guess also (after asking about definitions), balance is an issue.
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Still, my point is, i don't think it messes up the balance to read it as written and call "totally at the opponents mercy" helpless. I would expect higher level characters to be involved in such intrigue.

Of course, this is not the first time i've been wrong, or just played the game as the rules were written/accepted.

 

[billd91]

So what does the rule mean when it says "or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."? Give me some examples of that besides the ones listed.

Buried in sand up to your neck? Pinned by a rockslide?

Ultimately, that bit of text is there to cover the multitude of situations that could arise leaving a character pretty much totally unable to reflexively react to an attack beyond being bound, held, paralyzed, asleep, or unconscious.