Defintion of Creature and Enemy

[UngeheuerLich]

enemy only spells: you can decide which person to include... i consider a hostage willingly accept whatever happens to them...

 

[mysticknight232]

I know that a Shaman's SC is considered a conjuration, but would they also be considered an ally for feats/powers that affect or benefit from allies? I assumed the SC wasn't considered a creature, enemy or ally, but since they can be attacked by enemies as part of the SC class feature, I wasn't sure if they were considered allies as well as part of some special class feature that I missed.

 

[DracoSuave]

Relevant Rules Text Go:

When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

Take the definition of ally one further: They must be your willing teammates.

I dont think the power has the sentience to actively determine things for your players, rather it becomes a concious choice of the player who is or is not considered an ally for the purpose of area of effects.

Otherwise it would be hilarious to go:
You: "Healing Word the Dying Child!"
Ethereal Voice: "Denied! I dont know nor trust that child send me towards someone more trustworthy like Our Rogue who just received a nasty splinter!"

It's not based on the power's 'sentience.' It's based on the target's willingness. You as a player do not directly choose for your target its level of willingness. So your example would be closer to:

You: "Healing Word the Dying Child!"
Ethereal Voice: "The Dying Child does not know you and thinks you look like a strange demon with horns and hoofs and does not know what magic you are weaving upon him. He uses what little resistance he has to deny the magic; it is enough to work."
Dark pact Warlock: "Damn it, I guess I have to turn to the party... again."

And yes, Ally/Enemy status is strictly in the realm of DM fiat. Players get to determine if they are willing participants of powers, but beyond that, it's the DM's call. That child is probably not your teammate, and therefore, is not your ally, and is therefore, your enemy.

I know that a Shaman's SC is considered a conjuration, but would they also be considered an ally for feats/powers that affect or benefit from allies? I assumed the SC wasn't considered a creature, enemy or ally, but since they can be attacked by enemies as part of the SC class feature, I wasn't sure if they were considered allies as well as part of some special class feature that I missed.

They are not creatures, and not your teammate, so they cannot be allies. However, as they cannot be creatures, they cannot be enemies either. They can only be what they are: A persistant spell effect. Nothing more, nothing less. They have an exception in that your enemies can target him with melee and ranged powers, but even then they don't respond in a typically creature-y fashion. They have no means of attack.

So, they do not benefit from feats/powers that specifically affect allies. Nor... is there amuch point. Giving your spirit a bonus to attack will do nothing. Healing or giving him temp hp will do nothing. The only way to boost Spirit powers is to give yourself the bonus, because your spirit never makes an attack.

 

[mysticknight232]

Relevant Rules Text Go:

They are not creatures, and not your teammate, so they cannot be allies. However, as they cannot be creatures, they cannot be enemies either. They can only be what they are: A persistant spell effect. Nothing more, nothing less. They have an exception in that your enemies can target him with melee and ranged powers, but even then they don't respond in a typically creature-y fashion. They have no means of attack.

So, they do not benefit from feats/powers that specifically affect allies. Nor... is there amuch point. Giving your spirit a bonus to attack will do nothing. Healing or giving him temp hp will do nothing. The only way to boost Spirit powers is to give yourself the bonus, because your spirit never makes an attack.

My party member was specifically looking at powers that benefits from allies being in the burst/blast radius of the attack. I figured...and we ruled that they wouldn't gain the benefit because they weren't allies, but I figured I would double check.

Thanks for the quick response.

 

[Jhaelen]

Incorrect. As an example: If your cleric uses a 'target all enemies' power in a room filled with hostages that are tied up, and non-combatant, and do not know nor have reason to trust the players, then that power will treat them as enemies. Hostages are now dead. Your Cleric is now sad.

Yup, and the Cleric player will probably tell me to go look for new players - and rightly so!

The cleric gets to choose who he considers to be allies and who not when using the power. Everything else would be stupid.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yup, and the Cleric player will probably tell me to go look for new players - and rightly so!

The cleric gets to choose who he considers to be allies and who not when using the power. Everything else would be stupid.

Yes, exactly. Although, technically the hostages have to agree with your consider them allied status.

A little bit roleplaying will do the trick:

Cleric: Please Pelor, give me the power to cleanse this room from evil. But spare those that are willing to submit to your mercy.

This will allow everyone to accept the ally status. Including hostages and all enemies that prefer to surrender.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yup, and the Cleric player will probably tell me to go look for new players - and rightly so!

The cleric gets to choose who he considers to be allies and who not when using the power. Everything else would be stupid.

The Dark Pact Warlock would love you. Or any Dark Sun character with Arcane Defiling.

'I've decided that Kobold is an ally! Hey Kobold! I DRAIN YOUR LIFE FORCE!'
'DO NOT WANT!'
'Does not matter, lizzie, you're my ally cause I said so!'

Wrong.

Allies must be teammates and willing. It is those factors which decide. That means if you want to cast unknown magic on complete strangers, you should do something to gain their trust. Anything else is stupid: That hostage doesn't automagically know what strange juju you're doing to him.

Cleric: Please Pelor, give me the power to cleanse this room from evil. But spare those that are willing to submit to your mercy.

This will allow everyone to accept the ally status. Including hostages and all enemies that prefer to surrender.

Technically no, because those enemies do not become teammates by surrendering. Tho if one of the orcs went 'WORK IS DA POOP! NO MORE!' and turns on his fellows and switches sides, that's enough to get him ally status.

 

[Sunseeker]

I would argue that this also depends on the focus of the game, rules vs RP.

In my mind, for harmful magic, you can declare anyone an enemy or an ally. If there are 3 bandits and 2 hostages, and your fireball hits only allies, and you're here to save the hostages, then they are allies.

The same is true for beneficial(no negative side-effects) magic. You can give anyone a +2 to whatever as long as you consider them an ally. You cannot siphon 5 HP from anyone you consider an ally unless they consider you an ally as well.

Any ally can become an enemy if you decide that they are though.

Though the latter can happen at any time, I would probably require people to declare who they think are their allies at the start of the encounter. IMO, by allowing people to think someone is their ally, it adds the ability for them to be proven wrong, but also for them to gain new friends by NOT blowing up everyone in a 5-square zone. That, and I like the idea that players can control who their magic does or doesn't effect, it makes it, IMO, feel more like they're using THEIR magic.

 

[Jhaelen]

The Dark Pact Warlock would love you. Or any Dark Sun character with Arcane Defiling.

Okay.
1) I don't allow anything from the FR books because I hate FR with a passion, hence no Dark Pact Warlocks in my game.
2) You can be absolutely sure no player playing a defiler like this would ever love me

The thing is: We're looking at a game refereed by a real person - me, the DM. If a player starts abusing holes in the rules I'm going to make a judgement call (or find other ways to make life difficult for the character). I'm not a slave to RAW and neither should you be

Rules are important but it's equally important to know when to ignore them to improve the game.

PCs running around, carelessly obliterating non-combatants will run into problems no amount of combat prowess will be able to solve. And that's true no matter how you interpret the rules - at least in the games I DM.

 

[Sunseeker]

If a player starts abusing holes in the rules I'm going to make a judgement call (or find other ways to make life difficult for the character). I'm not a slave to RAW and neither should you be

Rules are important but it's equally important to know when to ignore them to improve the game.

PCs running around, carelessly obliterating non-combatants will run into problems no amount of combat prowess will be able to solve. And that's true no matter how you interpret the rules - at least in the games I DM.

Exactly, and this is an important post regarding many of the topics here about "can I do this in 4e", "can I do that in 4e/*other system*". It's our game, if you think X would be cool, interesting or "more right", do it.