Deity power level = Joke?

[Jon_Dahl]

How do feel about the significance of deity power levels? In case you don't know, we basically have seven(?) deity levels: quasi-deity, herodeity, demigod, lesser deity, intermediate deity, greater power and overdeity. Level names vary of course and quite frankly I'm confused with them, so excuse me for any errors.

Back in the day deity power level was a very, very significant factor. Demigods could only grant 5th-level spells and so forth. At lower levels, no problem. But at higher levels it hurted if you couldn't cast 6th or 7th-level spells.

Then came 3rd edition. Now all the clergies were able to cast all the spells. Being a cleric of a greater power or a demigod had no significance whatsoever. Nobody practically cares about this anymore. Power level is a waste of ink on a paper.

In my game there's an 6th level NPC-cleric of a greater power facing an 8th-level PC-cleric of an intermediate deity. The PC-cleric basically has nothing to fear from a weaker cleric and it wouldn't make any difference what the power level of his god is. I'm not going to house-rule this in any way or try some special measures to protect the NPC-cleric, but still I have to ask is there something wrong in this picture?

 

[Sammael]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this picture.

Deity's power level is only important when it comes to interactions with other deities.

Nerfing clerics based on the power of their god was not a well-thought-out game design idea.

If anything, from a logical perspective, clerics of weaker deities would be granted more power because that deity is likely trying to attract more worshipers - and the best way to attract worshipers is for people to witness the deity's power first hand, from that deity's clerics.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

Well, back in the day, I always took the power levels to indicate how "restricted" the deity was in following the cosmic "Rules of Godly Might". Basically, Greater gods were totally forbidden to enter any prime plane, ever. Lesser gods were fobidden...but if they did show up, they had better have a damn good reason and may have to explain themselves to the other gods. Demigods were 'discouraged' from showing up, but because they were "not real gods", they would just be watched by the others. If the demigods started to clash and waste huge swaths of land...and followers...then the greater gods may send a lesser god or two to tell 'em to knock it off immediately. If any god (regardless of power) showed up and was about to do some serious, country or world-spanning schinnanigans, a greater god *may* show up, where both gods would then leave together to conduct their godly affairs out of the view of the mere mortals.

Of course, this was godly stuff...the mortals that were there to fight for their 'side' would still be there, and probably still fight...but the actual "direct deific involvement" would not take place. The only two theoretical ways for a deity to 'take over a prime plane' would be if he could somehow do it without any other deity knowning (not likely), or if the demigod (or lesser god) could "proove they were legaly able" to do what they were doing (in a 'godly court of whatever' of course).

Bottom line, in my campaigns, gods all have to follow certain rules of the multiverse...even the crazy chaotic-evil ones. Mind you, the crazy chaotic evil ones tend to just ignore that, start the nastiness, and then are quickly beset upon by multitudes of the other gods who then do something to him (re; Tharizdun in Greyhawk, for example).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

(awesome FRPG from the early 80's: Powers and Perils - Index )

 

[Pentius]

I don't think there's anything wrong in this picture.

From a story point of view, neither god is giving all his power to the cleric. It's not like the two gods are in the room, duking it out.

From a game design standpoint, nixing the mechanical impact of deity power levels was the right thing to do. Clerics of lesser gods are awesome.

 

[S'mon]

Agree with Pentius - it's terrible design to make PC Clerics of Greater gods more powerful than PC Clerics of Lesser gods. If you want a monotheist setting where only Ezekiel can set the wood on fire, then just have one god for Clerics and their rivals are actually demon lords etc (whose 'priests' are NPCs or maybe Warlocks). If it's a polytheist setting then don't nerf the Clerics depending on deity power.

 

[delericho]

The only problem with deity power levels is that they're essentially meaningless. The weakest deities are set to such a power level that they are only suitable opponents for the highest level characters (and allies rarely need stats). And, of course, virtually no groups ever make it to such high levels - 3e breaks down around level 13, while 4e has virtually no Epic level support. As such, providing any sort of power levels is rather pointless - they'll never get used by 99%+ of groups.

 

[His Dudeness]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this picture.

Deity's power level is only important when it comes to interactions with other deities.

Nerfing clerics based on the power of their god was not a well-thought-out game design idea.

If anything, from a logical perspective, clerics of weaker deities would be granted more power because that deity is likely trying to attract more worshipers - and the best way to attract worshipers is for people to witness the deity's power first hand, from that deity's clerics.

How can it give what it doesn't have?

And most weaker deities are servants of stronger deities, like it happened in earth pantheons.

Also the world is no though out in terms of what makes sense from a PC perspective or what is more convenient for PCs. I do not share your opinion on the subject.

 

[Sammael]

As I said, if your campaign takes into account inter-deific politics, power levels are meaningful - they show you which gods are in charge, which gods are up and coming, and which gods are likely to try and amass more power in order to raise on the divine ranking ladder.

If not, sure, it's all meaningless. But every single campaign I've ever ran has been influenced, in part, by the deific struggles.

 

[Sammael]

?

How can it give what it doesn't have :/

Sure it does. Even the lowliest of deities is considerably more powerful than the overwhelming majority of mortals.

If you say that a lesser god cannot grant "miracles" to his clerics (and bear in mind that any given god will have only a handful of clerics capable of such feats), then you are saying that god himself cannot alter reality. And there are high level wizards in any given world who can do that and much more.

 

[His Dudeness]

Sure it does. Even the lowliest of deities is considerably more powerful than the overwhelming majority of mortals.

If you say that a lesser god cannot grant "miracles" to his clerics (and bear in mind that any given god will have only a handful of clerics capable of such feats), then you are saying that god himself cannot alter reality. And there are high level wizards in any given world who can do that and much more.

What? I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they don't have the same power level as a greater diety to give to it's follower.

Again, take into account that pantheons are organized hierarchically. It is not as simple as giving all your power to your followers, you also have to respond to your superior diety.

And they exist because at least in D&D, dieties represent aspects of the world. From an optimizer perspective they make no sense because they are the inferior choice, but for the sake of the internal consistency of the game world they must exist.