Demonomicon, ToH, Orcs of Stonefang Pass and Vor Rukoth in hand

[ferratus]

I'm a little disappointed in the maps I've seen for Vor Rukoth. My only complaint with Hammerfast was that the map didn't look particularly dwarven. I was expecting a city built around the contours of a mountain, like the depiction of a dwarven fortress city in Wizard's Presents: Races and Classes book. Instead, it just looked like any other small human city.

Vor Rukoth likewise doesn't feel like a hellish place of tiefling evil, and that bothers me enough that I don't think I'll pick it up (though the map would do for any sacked village)

 

[Jack99]

Hell yes. I really enjoyed running Thunderspire Labyrinth, so I was puzzled by the hatred of it. I then realized that I played up the factionalism of the Thunderspire Labyrinth itself, as it consisted of several Underdark races that hated each other. Each action that the party undertook upset the balance of power in the Seven Pillared Hall, which meant that they gained new allies and enemies with every strike against one faction or another.

I only regret that I didn't use Thunderspire as the beginning of an Underdark campaign. When I get a new gaming group someday, that's the location I will use for my heroes to conquer a kingdom in the Underdark.

Precisely. When I ran it, my players strayed and got lost in the tunnels. After which they got captured by drows and sold as slaves in the Seven Pillared Hall. They were bought by the Arena-master, a dwarf running an arena tournament, where the winners would find fame and freedom, and losers would win a swift death. Although stripped of magical items, they won, and were hailed as heroes. That made for a much more interesting start to TL and gave them a great connection with SPH. Of course, it took more than a level, but hey, it was fun

 

[Kelvor Ravenstar]

I'm a little disappointed in the maps I've seen for Vor Rukoth. My only complaint with Hammerfast was that the map didn't look particularly dwarven. I was expecting a city built around the contours of a mountain, like the depiction of a dwarven fortress city in Wizard's Presents: Races and Classes book. Instead, it just looked like any other small human city.

Vor Rukoth likewise doesn't feel like a hellish place of tiefling evil, and that bothers me enough that I don't think I'll pick it up (though the map would do for any sacked village)

I agree with the disappointment in the seeming humanity of Hammerfast; it would help if there was a way to distinguish between buildings that are supposed to be houses, and those that are tombs.
In terms of Vor Rukoth, to offer a possible explanation of why it does not resemble the pictures we've seen of Tiefling cities, there is one fact that should be remembered; the cities that are 'Tiefling' and were part of the empire of Bael Turath were human cities first. Only after the nobility of these cities entered into the pacts that transformed them into Tieflings would the architecture likely change, as their buildings and art would have changed along with their culture and worldview, as their dealings with an outside culture (the devils) influenced them.
So, most Tiefling cities would have a mix of Infernal and Human architecture, unless they were completely built over or founded after the pacts were made. It would be interesting for me to see a future dungeon adventure in a Tiefling city where it appeared Tiefling on top, but lower levels of a dungeon would have evidence of the original human culture that had been covered over the centuries since the pact but before the empire's fall. I'd image they could look like a tel of Earth's middle east, where a city is built on a great mound made of the crumbled and buried remains of earlier cultures.

 

[Jhaelen]

I know I use cool and awesome way too much - but honestly, the Demonomicon is just that. Awesome. I have no qualms rating it as the best supplement book of 4e, a spot that Underdark held previously (in my mind, of course).

Well, I'm not yet even half-way through the book (just finished reading the layer descriptions), but so far I am underwhelmed. In particular I noticed something really annoying:

Blatant use of copy and paste.

Time and again when reading a new section, I got this strange feeling of deja vu: "didn't I just read exactly the same thing, a while ago?" And it's not just a feeling, it's very real. E.g. information in the general description of a layer is repeated in later sections (sidebars, locations, inhabitants) with little or no alteration. There's no additional information - it's just reworded, and sometimes not even that!

Check out page 64, the last three sentences of the History section. Now compare them to page 65 'The Eye of Veshoriak', second paragraph. The sentences are repeated verbatim, except for a bracketed insert '(see Monster Manual, page 52)'.

Even more annoying: There are sections that are almost identical even though they describe _different_ places!

Compare page 47 'Bastion of Skycleave' with page 61 'Tornbend and Skyshrine'. Both describe earth motes anchored to the ground with big chains using (almost) identical words.

I'm getting the impression I may lack the 'nerves of steel' required to enjoy reading the book. To me this looks like the authors ran out of time and/or ideas. That's not an issue I noticed when reading 'Underdark' or 'Plane Below' (the latter being my favorite 4e book so far).

Another issue I have are the maps: The show quite a few locations that aren't mentioned anywhere, while there a descriptions of places that are _not_ on the maps.

Could it be that these maps are reprints? E.g. from the 3e Codex where more (or different) locations have been described?

I really hope the book gets better in the second half.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm a little disappointed in the maps I've seen for Vor Rukoth. My only complaint with Hammerfast was that the map didn't look particularly dwarven. I was expecting a city built around the contours of a mountain, like the depiction of a dwarven fortress city in Wizard's Presents: Races and Classes book. Instead, it just looked like any other small human city.

Vor Rukoth likewise doesn't feel like a hellish place of tiefling evil, and that bothers me enough that I don't think I'll pick it up (though the map would do for any sacked village)

I enjoyed reading both these supplements. Better maps would have been nice but I was happy to get ANY maps.

That is the one thing that is frustrating about 4E adventures-a complete lack of useful maps beyond the ones on a 5' grid scale for set piece combats. Adventures used to come with area overview maps. If there was a small town or village then at least a B&W sketch map of the layout would be included. In dungeons the "big picture" map showing where everything is in relation to other areas is often missing completely. These types of maps are far more useful for general play than the combat maps are.

 

[grabmill]

I really agree about the overview maps. What I really like, for example, is the hex-map from Hammerfast and its surroundings.
Does anyone know if there are more (official) hex maps from the Nentir Vale? Does Vor Rukoth say anything about the surroundings?

 

[grodog]

So, from a Greyhawk fan POV, do ToH or Demonomicon add anything interesting/new to use in Greyhawk specifically?

 

[Jack99]

So, from a Greyhawk fan POV, do ToH or Demonomicon add anything interesting/new to use in Greyhawk specifically?

Pass, my knowledge of GH is very limited and its been 15+ years since I read it.

 

[Shemeska]

Another issue I have are the maps: The show quite a few locations that aren't mentioned anywhere, while there a descriptions of places that are _not_ on the maps.

Could it be that these maps are reprints? E.g. from the 3e Codex where more (or different) locations have been described?

I went through the book, and no, none of the book's maps are reprints from the 3.x Fiendish Codex I. One of the level maps of Khin-Oin looks familiar, but it's not by any means a direct reprint of the 2e map of Khin-Oin from the Planes of Conflict box set.

On the other hand the reuse of artwork from prior books is pretty shocking. Just from material that I recognize immediately as having come from one or more 3.x books, here's a page listing of recycled artwork:
Page 10; 13; 19; 45; 51; 61; 77; 81; 83; 104; 107; 109; 121; 123; 126; 128; 133; 141.

A majority of the in-chapter artwork is recycled from 3.5 sources, and it's really only the maps, the chapter intro spreads, and some of the monsters that have new artwork for them. I'm rather surprised that they would recycle to that extent, probably a majority of images in the book having been from prior books and even a prior edition. It's possible that I missed more examples because if an image has been in another 4e book originally or the 4e e-zines, I wouldn't have recognized it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Another issue I have are the maps: The show quite a few locations that aren't mentioned anywhere, while there a descriptions of places that are _not_ on the maps.

I can't speak to Demonomicon directly, but I like maps that include places not discussed in the text. Really hammers home the point that the text can't cover everything, and often the names alone are enough to inspire further ideas.

As for the copy-paste issue, I did notice that a couple times, and it bugged me. But not nearly enough to ruin my enjoyment of the book, which I agree is one of the best for 4E so far.