D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Celtavian]

I wasn't working on a grid, just using Flamestike's hand drawn map, so it was hard to say for sure, but I ruled they were able to get two characters in each blast. The exception were the 3 characters that weren't able to move before the wolves who were all caught in one of the blasts. Only 3 wolves got a shot off as the first one was killed before it could go.

Only one character was hit twice, and that was the fighter, who cancelled all damage from the first blast with his shield and the rogue, of course, didn't take any damage.

With all the wolves grouped around the party it was hard to spread out very far. I didn't want to leave anyone by themselves to deal with the giants. I'll be interested to see what you do with your characters.

For the next encounter I am going to use a grid.

Edit: The animal companion (that failed its save) took 20 points of that combined damage. And that is damage that wouldn't have been done if it wasn't there. So that is an extra 20 points that needs to be healed just because my ranger decided to take the Beast Master subclass.

You can move around the wolves without provoking an AoO using them as cover given their size. Didn't you hypnotic pattern at few at the start of the battle?

 

[Celtavian]

Flamestrike,

How much gold do I have? At this level I usually create a simulacrum during down time? 13th level characters can usually come up with 1500 gold fairly easy. Given this is a between adventures situation, I want to start off with a simulacrum of the eldritch knight fighter with nonmagical gear.

 

[Lord Twig]

You can move around the wolves without provoking an AoO using them as cover given their size. Didn't you hypnotic pattern at few at the start of the battle?

I used hypnotic pattern on the giants. I had a real good chance of taking out both giants with that one spell. If I had the battle would have ended much quicker and with a lot less damage taken.

After the initial round of spell casting I have tried to conserve spell slots, that might have cost me more healing in the long run. I'll have to wait and see.

 

[Celtavian]

I used hypnotic pattern on the giants. I had a real good chance of taking out both giants with that one spell. If I had the battle would have ended much quicker and with a lot less damage taken.

After the initial round of spell casting I have tried to conserve spell slots, that might have cost me more healing in the long run. I'll have to wait and see.

You didn't use a delaying action with the fighter using the Dodge action and polymorph your wizard? You could even polymorph the cleric if you want to avoid concentration checks as I don't think your wizard took Resilient: Con?

The wolves with AoE will tax the party with damage more than the giants who focus fire on a single target. That's why I hypnotic pattern the wolves. If you use the dodge action to delay the giants and a polymorph on the cleric or wizard, you can delay the giants in combat for a few rounds while you take the wolves down. Though you did make a rogue instead of an archer with sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is more power the more attacks you get. A rogue sharpshooter is weak because he only gets one attack. 10 points aren't much with one attack. Two or three attacks with Sharpshooter is much, much more damage quickly. Even a 13th level rogue with sneak attack only does 1d6+7d6+16 sharpshooter, magic weapon, dex for 44 damage and a crossbow expert eldritch knight does up to 1d6+16 x4 which is up to 78. This is with no requirement for anyone to be engaged and in melee if he needs to. It's a much more powerful damage dealer than the rogue with not much downside that can't be taken care of by the bard or wizard.

 

[Lord Twig]

You didn't use a delaying action with the fighter using the Dodge action and polymorph your wizard? You could even polymorph the cleric if you want to avoid concentration checks as I don't think your wizard took Resilient: Con?

Disadvantage was imposed on some attacks thanks to the cleric's Warding Flare and the fighter's protection style. You can try dodging, I don't think it will do you much good. As for polymorph, it was the wizard that was holding the Hypnotic Pattern up, he can't also cast Polymorph. Magic is heavily nerfed in this edition compared to 3.x/pathfinder. That's probably a good thing since it means you can't just solve everything with a spell. And yes, my wizard took 2 points of Con instead of 1 Con and proficiency with Con saves.

The wolves with AoE will tax the party with damage more than the giants who focus fire on a single target. That's why I hypnotic pattern the wolves. If you use the dodge action to delay the giants and a polymorph on the cleric or wizard, you can delay the giants in combat for a few rounds while you take the wolves down.

And here is where theorycraft falls apart when it hits the table...

Three of the wolves got one breath weapon shot each, then they had to wait for it to recharge, which it never did. So massed breath weapons were not an actual thing.

Though you did make a rogue instead of an archer with sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is more power the more attacks you get. A rogue sharpshooter is weak because he only gets one attack. 10 points aren't much with one attack. Two or three attacks with Sharpshooter is much, much more damage quickly. Even a 13th level rogue with sneak attack only does 1d6+7d6+16 sharpshooter, magic weapon, dex for 44 damage and a crossbow expert eldritch knight does up to 1d6+16 x4 which is up to 78.

I agree with this, which is why I didn't get Sharpshooter. It can be good in some cases, but it isn't universally good in every case.

This is with no requirement for anyone to be engaged and in melee if he needs to. It's a much more powerful damage dealer than the rogue with not much downside that can't be taken care of by the bard or wizard.

The drawing on the first encounter shows the relative position of the giants, wolves and players, but it fails to convey the fact that the giants are 15' wide in a 40' wide chamber. They only have to move up 15' and they can hit the back of the room with their axes. There is nowhere a ranged character can go that they can not hit them.

 

[Celtavian]

Disadvantage was imposed on some attacks thanks to the cleric's Warding Flare and the fighter's protection style. You can try dodging, I don't think it will do you much good. As for polymorph, it was the wizard that was holding the Hypnotic Pattern up, he can't also cast Polymorph. Magic is heavily nerfed in this edition compared to 3.x/pathfinder. That's probably a good thing since it means you can't just solve everything with a spell. And yes, my wizard took 2 points of Con instead of 1 Con and proficiency with Con saves.

Did you shield of faith your fighter?

And here is where theorycraft falls apart when it hits the table...

Three of the wolves got one breath weapon shot each, then they had to wait for it to recharge, which it never did. So massed breath weapons were not an actual thing.

Depends on how they are used. I generally have wolves focus on a single target with all four breath weapons catching others if able. They tend to pack attack and tear.

I agree with this, which is why I didn't get Sharpshooter. It can be good in some cases, but it isn't universally good in every case.

It's extremely good in a wide variety of scenarios. No cover penalties. -5/+10 against soft ACs. No penalties for range. If you make a ranged attacker, never leave home without it.

The drawing on the first encounter shows the relative position of the giants, wolves and players, but it fails to convey the fact that the giants are 15' wide in a 40' wide chamber. They only have to move up 15' and they can hit the back of the room with their axes. There is nowhere a ranged character can go that they can not hit them.

15 foot squares with 10 foot reach. So you would have to track to each side of the room to avoid hits. With the 15 food wide ape, you can do this easier.

We'll see how it goes. I think I'm ready to run it. I'll roll it out tonight using the initiatives from the previous combat.

 

[Celtavian]

Encounter 1: Round 1

Pre-encounter:
Resource and Time Tracking for set up:
Time: 4 hours 45 minutes (4 hours 55 minutes starting time)
Wizard: 1 5th level slot to use teleportation circle from device.

Active Spells:
Rary's telepathic bond cast as ritual. 10 minutes time used/1 hour duration

First Encounter
Time:
Resources:
Eldritch Knight: Bolts: 4


Combat:
Initiative Order: No surprise round.
Eldritch Knight 17 (same dex as Azurewraith, so assuming same init)
Giants: 17
Bard: 15
Paladin: 15
Wolves: 9
Wizard: 7
Cleric: 5

First round actions:

Eldritch Knight: The giants take up 15 x 15 squares and each wolf a 10 by 10 square. In an 80 by 40 room, this is not possible. I'm going to use the wolves and party as a plotting point and fit the room to the description of giant's position. Now it is about 80 by 80. I set FG2 about 40 feet from the wizard and FG1 about 25 feet left of the original giant per Flamestrike's description. I'm assuming he may be used to running theater of the mind rather than a grid because these dimensions set things up very differently following tactical grid movement.

Free Use Object: Draw Handcrossbow
Action: Fire at wolf in back of cave nearest cleric and bard.
Bonus Action: Extra hand crossbow shot.
Using Sharpshooter: +13-5 sharpshooter=+8 to hit.
Rolls:
5+8=13 hit
6+8=14 hit
6+8=14 hit
11+8=19 hit

Damage: 4d6+64= (rolls 4, 3,3,6) 19 +64=83

Wolf at back wall dead. Assuming large body creates difficult terrain on back four squares.

Move Action: EK falls back behind bard to back wall tromping over wolf body of room near south wall taking AoO from Winter Wolf.

Wolf 1 reaction AoO: Damn. Natural 20 on my EK. 4d6+4 (2,2,2,4)=14 damage. Save DC 14 strength versus trip.
Save roll: +5 prof +4 paladin aura=17+9=26 (still standing)

Resources
Bolts: 4
Hit points: 120/106


Giants: The big giant (designate FG2 and closest to paladin; engaged in melee) with the axe made of ice snarls something in a language none of you understand (Giant) and charges forward swinging his axe at the biggest among you... the Paladin!

His first attack is a 15 (+10) or 25
His second attack is also a 15 (DM is rolling well tonight!) for another 25.

Each attack deals 3d12+7 damage (+1d12 cold).

Attack 1 deals (3+3+2)+7 and 1 (doh!) damage = 15 slashing and 1 cold
Attack 2 deals (11+11+3)+7 and 4 (better!) damage = 32 slashing and 4 cold damage.

Unless anyone has a way to stop any of that damage, or has any reactions they think are applicable its 52 points of damage to the Paladin.

Paladin will use reaction: shield spell boosting AC to 26 until start of his next turn. Both attacks miss.

The second giant contrary to the original description and diagram has insufficient movement to close the distance for melee combat. He still hates the dwarf, draws an icy rock from his pouch, and hucks it at the dwarf.

First roll 14 (+9) = 23 (This does indeed hit the dwarf)
Rock: 4d10+6 damage for (8,6,1,7)=28 damage. (ouch)

Resources
Cleric: 133/105
Paladin: 1st level slot


Bard:It's so much nicer when you can see things. The map has changed. With the giants engaged as Flamestrike described them, Jubali will now hypnotic pattern both giants and one wolf on the far west side. Even had I followed the actions Flamestrike described, the giants engaging the cleric and paladin from the side they came would have placed them and one wolf in hypnotic pattern range.

Action: Cast hypnotic pattern on wolf and both giants. DC 17.
FG1: 14+3=17 (saves
FG2 (Frost axe): 7+3=10 (misses)
Wolf: 7+1=8 (misses)

One giant still active, but not bad.

Move: Falls back to far wall next to wolf 3.
Free action telepahty: Don't hit the giant on Ryken. He's frozen.

Resources
3rd level slot.

Second roll 4 (+9) = miss.Unless anyone has anything else they want to do, its the Bards turn.
Paladin: Ryken holds position attacking wolf 2 in front of him.
Attacks: +9
Rolls:
9+9 =18
9+5=14

Two hits: 2d8+8 slashing +2d8 radiant=(4,1,5,8)=26

Wolf 2: 75/49

Move action: hold position.
Bonus Action: shield of faith AC 23.

Resources
2 1st level spell slots

Wolves: Wolf 1 is patterned.
Wolf 2: breathes on paladin, wizard, and cleric
Wolf 3: breathes on paladin, wizard, and cleric.

Seeing grouped targets, their pack mentality says freeze them all.

Paladin save: 0+4 (Two DC 12 dex saves: 2, 11) 6,15 (one save, one miss) Concentration Checks with Warcaster: +12 Con Save (15,9 and 14,5)=27 and 26 (success)
wizard: (In paladin's aura) 2+4 (3,3) 9,9 (damn-two fails)
Cleric: 0+4 (in paladin's aura) (20,17) 24,21

Damage wolf 1 breath 4d8 (6,3,6,1) 16
Damage wolf 2 breath: 4d8 (4,1,8,3) 16

Paladin: 24 cold
wizard: 32 cold
cleric: 16 cold.

Resources
Paladin: 120/96
wizard: 93/92 (Forgot: Arcane Ward: 31/0)
cleric: 133/89

Wizard: He's not happy.
Free action telepathy: "Dom. Ape time. I'm going to hide."
Action: Casts polymorph changing cleric into a giant ape.
Move: Hides behind wolf body dropping prone out of sight.

Resources
4th level slot

Cleric Ape Dom moves to attack FG1.
Move: Move 10 feet to FG1
Attack: Fists: +9 to hit. 1: Roll: 9+9=18 Dam: 3d10+6 bludgeoning (8,7,4) 25 points to FG1
2: Roll 4+9=13 miss.

FG1: 138/113

End of Round 1.

That was rough rolling that out. I'll do another round tomorrow. Took more time than I thought it would. Sheesh. This is a lot more involved than I thought it would be.

 

[Flamestrike]

If I were a Twitterer this would be the perfect time to consult with the devs on RAI.

So after calling me 'intellectually dishonest' for simply stating there is some ambiguity in the relevant section on AD XP totals, you now seem to have come full circle and admit that it needs clarification.

I cleary stated that the chart seems to indicate you use adjusted XP, but the immediately preceeding text states 'earnt' XP. That is an objective fact from any reading of the text. The numbers in the chart also reflect XP that more closely matches earnt XP over adjusted XP (the latter would be extremely hard to determine working backwards from an entire day XP budget unless using solo monsters). The thrust of the entire passage however seems to indicate adjusted XP.

Im not saying it should be read one way or the other - only that it is worded poorly and ambiguous. You prefer a particular wording (and thats your right) but there is no need to be hostile towards me for simply stating (what a lot of people agree) that the wording is ambiguous.

And I agree; its one that should be forwarded to the Devs for tweet clarification.

The party is going to drop the last giant, no question, but it was definitely a big drain on resources. A short rest will be coming up.

Bearing in mind you have 10 x potions of superior healing (so 4d4+4 healing each). Thats 40d4+40 extra healing (around 140HP) in the party.

As for long rest resources I expect this encounter to drain around 15 percent of total party resources (spell slots, rages, smites etc).

Flamestrike,

How much gold do I have? At this level I usually create a simulacrum during down time? 13th level characters can usually come up with 1500 gold fairly easy. Given this is a between adventures situation, I want to start off with a simulacrum of the eldritch knight fighter with nonmagical gear.

In my games Simulacrums are treated as (generally very friendly and loyal) NPCs run by the DM, and not the player. They have thier own minds and wishes (subject to a compulsion to treat the caster as a good friend and someone they are magically compelled to obey). They are often aware of their own limitations (once they expend a slot, its gone for good), and (like anyone) dont want to die. They can quickly grow resentful of the caster (and may even seek to escape or revolt absent some very clear and comprehensive orders to the contrary that they cannot interpret differently). There are a lot of RP variables at play here. Think of any movie that features AI for some of the things that can go wrong.

It's no different to having a charmed clone of the person that you've paid 1,500gp for their services along for the adventure, or a loyal hireling.

TLDR: Its a very DM dependent spell, and may distort the results in the absence of a controlling DM to impose RP limits on the spell, in a similar way to what the leadership feat could do in the absence of a strong DM in 3.5.

Its best if we leave Simulacrums and hirelings out of the adventure for now, but it's fair to say that an expenditure of 1,500gp on a simulacrum (or a hireling) would make the adventure easier to acomplish.

 

[Celtavian]

In my games Simulacrums are treated as (generally very friendly and loyal) NPCs run by the DM, and not the player. They have thier own minds and wishes (subject to a compulsion to treat the caster as a good friend and someone they are magically compelled to obey). They are often aware of their own limitations (once they expend a slot, its gone for good), and (like anyone) dont want to die. They can quickly grow resentful of the caster (and may even seek to escape or revolt absent some very clear and comprehensive orders to the contrary that they cannot interpret differently). There are a lot of RP variables at play here. Think of any movie that features AI for some of the things that can go wrong.

It's no different to having a charmed clone of the person that you've paid 1,500gp for their services along for the adventure, or a loyal hireling.

TLDR: Its a very DM dependent spell, and may distort the results in the absence of a controlling DM to impose RP limits on the spell, in a similar way to what the leadership feat could do in the absence of a strong DM in 3.5.

Its best if we leave Simulacrums and hirelings out of the adventure for now, but it's fair to say that an expenditure of 1,500gp on a simulacrum (or a hireling) would make the adventure easier to acomplish.

Simculacrum isn't DM dependent. It states in the spell verbatim, "It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat." A DM has a little wiggle room to play its personality. It's basically like a summoned creature that will not act without its creators approval. Now I wouldn't mind if a DM wanted to have a little fun with a simulacrum making rolls for him and such. Or created a situation where the simulacrum became self-aware. That's just the DM having some fun creating. The spell is very clear as to how the simulacrum acts.

That being said, I don't mind foregoing one. He won't last long with 60 hit points since The Sage and I believe the errata made it clear that he can only be repaired by spending gold. And a lucky dispel magic can get rid of them as well. So they tend to be a glass cannon to be used as soon as possible before the DM kills or dispels it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Simculacrum isn't DM dependent. It states in the spell verbatim, "It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat."

Yes it is DM dependent. The spell creates a DMNPC that is (initially at least) friendly to you, and obeys your verbal commands (subject to its own interpretation of those commands).

Its a loyal soldier.

A DM has a little wiggle room to play its personality.

How can you say this? Its the DM plays it, who makes decisions for it (interpreting your orders through the filter of its perceptions) and who decides what the Sim wants. In a real campaign, I would likely play it as a copy of the Eldritch Knight, maybe with the twist that it wants to be a real person (the Pinnochio effect). It may even talk to the EK and beg him to help it. Depending on your relationship with the EK (and the campaign experiences of the EK to date), this could create an... intresting series of events.

It's basically like a summoned creature that will not act without its creators approval.

No its not. Its a part real/ part illusion copy of a creature. It has the same knowledge and shared experiences of that creature (spells prepared that morning, proficiencies, languages, experience level etc). It may even (if it is a simulacrum of the caster) also be aware that it is a simulacrum (or discover that fact later on). Depending on its knowledge of arcana and the actual spell used to create it, this could lead to all sorts of interesting interactiosn with it and the player.

The spell is very clear as to how the simulacrum acts.

"It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat."

So do loyal hirelings.

And compare this behavioural limit to Aasimovs laws of robotics for AI. Its nowhere near as comprehensive as those three laws, and Aasimovs get 'worked around' in fiction all the time.

So they tend to be a glass cannon to be used as soon as possible before the DM kills or dispels it.

And this knowledge (if possesed by the EK) is also possesed by the Simulacrum of the EK. Meaning it will know that you intend to use it as an expendable force multiplier (as you have done on earlier castings of the spell). It is loyal to you, and friendly to you, but assuming this knowledge is available to it, it may very well interpret your orders not exactly as you intended, and whn not given explicit orders to the contrary may decide that the best way to be friendly to you, or the best way to carry out your orders, is to do something very different to what you intended or asked.

My intent would be to make the Simulacrum spell almost as much trouble as it solves, and replete with RP and story implications to make casting it a real 'choice' by the caster instead of a gamist only force multiplier.

This isnt some kind of 'be a Jerk' move by the DM. Im just saying that messing with (self aware) AI is a dangerous and tricky proposition and it requires a raft of in game knowledge and variables for the DM to pull off, that will be too difficult in the parameters of the current test (for identical reasons why a cohort would be difficult to adjudicate, and they would be reasonably common for PCs of this level as well).

In a normal campaign I would expect high level fighters to have cohorts/ leutenants and myrmidion/ mercenary armies, and wizards to have simulacrums/ constructs/ apprentices/ undead minions and rogues to have guild membership etc, but in the context of the current campaign these are all a little top difficult to adjudicate properly.