D&D 5E [+] Design & Development: Magic Item Pricing

[Kinematics]

Sounds simple... but there's several assumptions in there.

Not just that we picked "one third of your gross wealth" and "five consumables equals one permanent item" out of hats. Also "the official guidelines are useful"

Heh.

Your method means treating scrolls as something special. I'm hesitating to go for different ratios for different consumables (ammo, potions, etc), at least not until we end up realizing it doesn't work otherwise.

I think I prefer to keep the problem defined using the questions: "Is 20% a reasonable discount for a single-use item?" and "Is caster level a reasonable price level for spellcasting items?". If we answer yes to both questions, this is what we end up with

I would say the second question is almost certainly "yes" for something as direct and straightforward as a scroll, which is simply casting a spell. Probably for single-use potions as well, since they're just a different way of casting a spell, but maybe a bit higher. For permanent items and chargeable items, I'd be more hesitant.

That doesn't mean I think a scroll is equal to a potion. I'm well aware previous editions price them differently, simply because potions can be used by more characters than scrolls. The big question is: is the accessibility of a potion worth an entire level's worth?

If potions are generally available for most spells, and generally maintain concentration for you, then the answer is a resounding "yes". But if potions are limited to the specific items of the DMG, I'm not so sure. Then it might be better to price each potion individually.

And oh, just as with weapons and armor there are plenty of variance with spells. Just like armor, we're gonna focus on the spell scrolls you actually want to purchase. Other spells might be overpriced just like ring mail +3, but figuring out individual discounts is something to worry about much later, if at all.

The more general usability of potions means they're probably at more of a premium. At the same time, the common stuff like healing potions are going to trend to lower levels anyway.

Anyway, the discount. If you're looking at perhaps 6 to 7 moderate-to-big fights to gain a level (rough estimate using level 5 numbers, but the ratio is about the same throughout tier 2), and your spellcaster is using most of his spell slots per day, how many scrolls might he be able to make use of each day? How many top-level spells should scrolls substitute for over the course of the level?

Considering gameplay balance, and the variable rate of encounters, I'd say.... 2. Gaining more than 2 top-level spell slots to use per level's worth of fights feels like it starts significantly cheapening the balance put in place on spell slots.

At the same time, I'd want to scale that out per tier. The scrolls could be per level, but that doesn't work when you're pricing things in terms of fraction of wealth at a given level.

Tier 2 has a typical wealth total of 18,000 gp. If 1/3 of that gave 2 scrolls on a per-level rate, that's about 1000 gold per level. Since there are 3 spell-levels in tier 2, I'd adjust to scale at something like 500/1000/1500. Compare that with expected wealth at each level, and make further adjustments, and you actually end up with a cost-per-scroll of 1/8 of a slot. That actually seems overly cheap, so I might increase to 1/4 of a slot.

Except you're not just using two top-tier scrolls. You also have access to all the lower tiers. If you had one extra 3rd level scroll each level from 5-10, plus one extra 4th level scroll from 7-10, and one extra 5th level scroll from 9-10, and used 25% of a slot as a cost basis, it totals up to 8700 spent out of 18000 gained in the tier. If you consider the value of all of those scrolls compared to the money spent on spiffy weapons and armor by the melees (8600 gp spent on a greatsword plus armor), it's actually not entirely out of line. You end up with 50% of gained wealth spent on scrolls if you use them that way.

If you drop it back to 1/8 of a slot, it becomes cheap enough to use on a regular basis. I'd almost consider it excessive, but since they're consumables, and represent a single spell, rather than a generic spell slot, it starts becoming more reasonable. In fact if you consider that you might want to have several spells to choose from, even if you don't use them all...

If you allocate 50% of all tier wealth to scrolls, and purchase 5 scrolls of each spell level at each character level, base price works out to 1/16 of a slot. That gives you a lot of scrolls to work with, but is also using up a large chunk of your wealth. Of course that assumes you're using every single scroll you buy each level, and that's almost certainly not the case.

Factoring that into the estimations.... Results in about 1/10 of a slot for pricing.

I'd consider it a substantial power increase over baseline, but then I'd consider a greatsword+1/armor+1 to be a substantial power increase over baseline as well.



So summary: I'd go for a scroll price of 1/10 of a slot (which is 1/3 of expected wealth) of the level of the spell.


That does fall behind Xanathar's pricing. 3rd level scrolls would be about 1/7 Xanathar's price. 6th level scrolls are about 1/9 Xanathar's price. 8th level scrolls are about 1/12 Xanathar's price. And 9th level scrolls are about 1/20 Xanathar's price. I'd probably add an extra premium for scrolls of 6th+ level spells. They shouldn't be as casually obtainable as spells 5th level and lower.

 

[Kinematics]

Indeed. I was talking about maximized items, at least initially.

What level do you feel would be appropriate for a Str 21 Belt?

(Pricewise. I'm fully aboard with an answer of "it is never appropriate", but we're talking price here, and just like with magic armor, we need to assume the DM wants to include the item and just want our best shot at pricing it, relative to other items)

For all practical purposes, 21 Str isn't any different than 20 Str, particularly since it replaces any other Str boosts (and thus you can't get 22 Str from it). As such, it's equivalent to getting your Str to 20. For a fighter or barbarian, you're pretty much guaranteed to have that by level 12, and are likely to have that by level 8. (Assuming the standard array for stats.) Therefore by level 12, this largely has no value for a heavy Str class. At best, if they pick it up while still at 18 Str, they might forgo the Str ASI and get a feat instead, or perhaps boost Con or Dex. It's nice, but not crucial.

However for other classes that might want to melee, but not focus on Str — particularly gishes, but excluding rogues — this is massive no matter what level it shows up.

Overall, the absolute minimum level I'd put it at is level 7 — early enough that a fighter or barbarian could choose to do something else with the level 8 ASI, while also at a level that the gishes would be really excited to have it (again, likely influencing the level 8 ASI choice). More likely, I'd put it at 11 (again, just before the ASI level), as the non-optimizers are much less likely to reach 20 Str before that point, and it's still a massive boost for the non-fighter/barbarian.

(I'd actually probably put it in the shop when the players are level 7, but price it at level 11, in order to keep them from affording it right away, but give them more to think about with respect to how they advance their characters when such an item is a possibility.)

 

[CapnZapp]

For all practical purposes, 21 Str isn't any different than 20 Str

D'oh. Yes. My bad.

I meant a +6 bonus. More than can normally be achieved. Pretend I asked about Strength 23.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Those belts are difficult. By Kinematics' logic (which is sound) a Fighter would have str 22 at level 12 at the earliest (if allowed). So str 26 at lvl 16 and 28 at 20? I dunno. The point that it's an incredible boost to anyone who hasn't invested ASIs in str and invalidates someone who has investment, I think pricing for these are very difficult to nail without messing with classes' core niche.

I actually like 3e stat increasers better, whether or not they should go to +6. They are always valuable and useful.

 

[Kinematics]

D'oh. Yes. My bad.

I meant a +6 bonus. More than can normally be achieved. Pretend I asked about Strength 23.

I'd probably still keep the 21 Str belt at level 11. Then look at the value of additional strength.

[sblock=Math review]
1d8 + 2 (dueling) or 1d10 (reroll 1/2), +2 from weapon, +5 from 20 Str, +5 Prof (min level 13), vs AC 17.

80% base hit chance. +1 to-hit from higher Str increases that to 85%. (1.0625)

With advantage, that goes from 96% to 97.75% (1.018229166667)

13.5 1H improves to 14.5 (1.074074074074)
13.3 2H improves to 14.3 (1.075187969925)

Overall, 9% to 14% increases in damage output.


Increases carrying capacity by 30 pounds. Increases Athletics and Grapple checks by 1.

For someone with 20 Str already, it's a minor boost. For someone with, say, 12 Str, it's ridiculously huge.
[/sblock]

I'd maybe go for +2 levels for each extra tier of belt. 11 for 21 Str, 13 for 23 Str, 15 for 25 Str, 17 for 27 Str, 19 for 29 Str.

23 Str is still massive for anyone not focusing on Str, but that's the same for the 21 Str belt. So you can only really evaluate it in relative terms, and relative to a 20 Str, it's only a modest increase. That would continue to be the case for the further belt increments when compared to the previous one, but you kind of have to still evaluate them relative to the peak normal Str you could get.

So yeah, that's how I'd probably price them (subject to change as more values of different items are set).

 

[Kinematics]

Also, if using those levels, that translates to tier fractions:

21 Str: 90% of tier 2
23 Str: 140% of tier 2

21 Str: 18% of tier 3
23 Str: 25% of tier 3
25 Str: 40% of tier 3
27 Str: 130% of tier 3

27 Str: 20% of tier 4
29 Str: 33% of tier 4

For the 23 Str belt to be 25% of tier 3... Sounds reasonable.

 

[darkrose50]

Wealth Per Level
[1] Based on the random chart above (someplace).

[2] Assuming the middle GP values below:
Rarity (Tier, low value/medium value/high value)
Uncommon (T1, 101/250/500)
Rare (T2, 501/2,500/5,000)
Very Rare (T3, 5,001/25,000/50,000)
Legendary (T4, 50,001/250,000/500,000)

Level: Wealth Per Level = Random Non-Magic Item GP Value + Random Magic Item GP Value
1: 0
2: 140
3: 355
4: 745
5: 4,935
6: 8,875
7: 15,315
8: 19,330
9: 23,520
10: 27,460
11: 48,260
12: 66,810
13: 85,110
14: 131,235
15: 174,535
16: 192,835
17: 211,135
18: 464,135
19: 1,194,635
20: 1,422,635

 

[Inglorin]

My plan is to collect a few key items (including weapons and armor which you just missed by a few posts) and then start a new thread, initially presenting a single price list just like folks are used to. You're right, it will hopefully make it easier to give feedback.

Did this thread happen and did I just miss it? I always assumed, that magic item pricing on a level tried in this thread (and many others) is impossible because there a far to many assumptions being made by different GMs and variances in game play or setting to be incorporated. But I was ready to be persuaded. I would like to read the follow-up and peruse the results...

 

[CapnZapp]

No time so far... Thanks for your interest though! ☺

This thread and the wealth curve ones, together with the price-as-level concept, have really helped me understand what to keep in mind, and where I want various items to be placed on the 1-20 scale.

But so far the daunting task of formally writing up a set of guidelines remains in the future.

My fabulous bazaars thread is the most practical result so far - I'd say its price level is halfway there (progressing from d20 and Sane towards a true 5E pricing)

Did you see the image from MIC (can't remember in which thread)? Where typical magic items was placed on a level (1-30) scale? The purpose there wasn't directly to indicate price, but to move away from detailed pricing formulas... which is just the sort of simplification I think is right for 5E anyway!