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Design & Development: Warlord Article UP!

Geron Raveneye

Explorer
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Tell me for whom it is not fun to say "I can help us in this combat so that we can all move into better tactical position". "I can give you a further bonus if you choose to attack target X". These aren't unfun abilities. For no one. They give you an option, you get an in-game benefit. That is fun. At least for anyone who is even interested at all in running a combat encounter. The "fun" of a mechanic is judged by the fun of using it. Not the fun of analyzing it.

Come on Mustrum...you read the 4E forum as much as I do, and you must have noticed the fact that what you just posted is also only true for you (and everybody who thinks like you, of course), while there is PLENTY of posters here who have noted that any fun coming from using some mechanic (so far as revealed) in 4E will be more than eaten up by the headaches/problems they have when thinking about the mechanic.

And if D&D has created ONE thing consistently, it's players who THINK about, around and beyond its mechanics. Even 4E will do so, especially since a lot of the so far revealed mechanics will require the players thinking about it in order to fix it into the narrative of their ongoing game.
 

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Falling Icicle said:
With all due respect, I have the exact opposite impression. To me, it seems 4th edition is a glorified tactical boardgame with stricter, more contrived rules. There's nothing more narrative about 4th edition combat than 3rd edition, that I can see. It seems to me that it's just the opposite. 4th edition has more emphasis on the board and the strict rules that make the boardgame simulation work, and much less concern for the narrative of the battle.
I don't see that at all. 4E has diagonal movement costing the same as non-diagonal, which means distances and movement are more abstract, not more strict, than in 3E. Action points gives players more narrative control. Giving classes powers that force opponents to move (without magic) are more abstract, since you'll have to describe them in-game without reliance on "it's magic". Just the fact that all non-spellcasting classes have so many more options in combat should lead to more variety in battle, more fun in battle, more ability to do impressive things in battle, which should lead to better narratives than "I charged the bad guy and attacked him with my sword until he was dead."

You could argue that 4E won't have a great degree of narrative control in battle. But it will still be more than the essentially zero narrative control that players had in 3E.
 

Geron Raveneye said:
Come on Mustrum...you read the 4E forum as much as I do, and you must have noticed the fact that what you just posted is also only true for you (and everybody who thinks like you, of course), while there is PLENTY of posters here who have noted that any fun coming from using some mechanic (so far as revealed) in 4E will be more than eaten up by the headaches/problems they have when thinking about the mechanic.

And if D&D has created ONE thing consistently, it's players who THINK about, around and beyond its mechanics. Even 4E will do so, especially since a lot of the so far revealed mechanics will require the players thinking about it in order to fix it into the narrative of their ongoing game.
What I am saying is that people, when actually sitting down and playing the game, they will find these mechanics fun. What they feel when discussing on message boards or after the game is a different matter, and frankly, that's far outside the scope of what game mechanics are supposed to do.

When I started playing D&D, I found the notion of hit points one of the worst idea ever (alongside with vancian magic, which was totally not like the magic of Shadowrun). Playing the game since 2000, I am still not a fan of Vancian Magic, but I come to like hit points a lot. And I am now quite willing to subscribe to the idea of "hit points are an abstraction, don't represent only meatiness, but also luck, stamina, fatigue, sixth sense, the gods favor and whatever else...".
 

Derren

Hero
catsclaw said:
The next day, the five of them travel down the road to the next town, where a dealer in previously-owned dragon treasure had promised to make them a good deal on gold statues and jewel-encrusted goblets. It is just past midmorning, when a shriek comes from the sky. Something large dives out of the sun at them, a mass of feathers and talons, but with the head of a serpent and the tail of a jackrabbit. It is like nothing they have ever seen.

Before anyone can react, Drogo the Warlord steps forward and raises his spear. "Allagash White, Yarick! Across and down!" he yells, and jabs his spear at the wing of the beast.

Yarick nods--they had discussed this just the other day--and rushes the creature's flank. Sure enough, there are the blood feathers Yarick promised, and with the thing rearing back from Drogo it's a simple matter to bring the axe around with a satisfying crack.

The beast is soon finished off, hobbled by the adventurers. "How did you know?" Yarick asks Drogo, "I barely saw the shadow before it was on us." Drogo chuckles, "I caught a glimpse of its silhouette. I only know a couple kinds of wings, and if it was flying in this season it probably started moulting a couple weeks ago. Beyond that?"

Drogo grins broadly. "I guessed."

But the party cheered to early, another one of those creatures dove out of the sky and landed on both sides of the,
"Drogo, distract it again, like with the last beast" shouts Yarick.
"I can't the law of the universe only allows me to distract an opponent once per day. I suggest you stun it with your shield bash and we make a run for it"
"That doesn't work., I know that I have to meditate for five minutes before I can move my shield arm again. We just have to hope that we regenerate faster than the wounds the beast inflict"
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
That is pretty simple narrative to solve:

"Drogo stabbed at the beast with his spear, it slid along the bone of the wing, unable to dig deep like before.

The creature hardly noticing the attack, swiped as the fighter tried to pass under the wing pushing him back.

The creature now wary of these companions, rests its wings close to the body, blocking them from another strike."

Just because a person was able to pull of a tactic one time, doesn't mean the next time will work out.
 

Geron Raveneye

Explorer
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
What I am saying is that people, when actually sitting down and playing the game, they will find these mechanics fun. What they feel when discussing on message boards or after the game is a different matter, and frankly, that's far outside the scope of what game mechanics are supposed to do.

When I started playing D&D, I found the notion of hit points one of the worst idea ever (alongside with vancian magic, which was totally not like the magic of Shadowrun). Playing the game since 2000, I am still not a fan of Vancian Magic, but I come to like hit points a lot. And I am now quite willing to subscribe to the idea of "hit points are an abstraction, don't represent only meatiness, but also luck, stamina, fatigue, sixth sense, the gods favor and whatever else...".

Here you already mentioned something that didn't just annoy people when they discussed it outside of the actual game, but while playing, and for quite a while...the Vancian Magic system of older editions. There's enough players that will curse, complain, and discuss the so-called "fire and forget" of 3E and earlier with gusto while somebody else ticks down the spells for his daily memorization. That is not something that only happened outside of games. Or only in the past. For some reason, Vancian Magic is still the biggest thorn in many players' sides. The same goes, in my experience, for Attacks of Opportunity, a mechanic that caused a lot of discussions to pop up around my table, and mostly because we don't use minis or battlemaps. It took suspending them completely for us to have a smooth game again.

Some people will simply play, and others will see a rules mechanic and immediately start thinking about it, how it applies to the game, the consequences of it, and how it can be exploited. And a lot will immediately voice their dislike if they think the rule is "lame" or "broken". Which will simply cloud, or blot out, any fun the rule might create if applied without thinking too much about it.

As an aside, coming to Shadowrun from D&D, I had a hell of a lot of fun with their magic system, and still love the game as a whole, even if I had to houserule some sense into 1E before it worked for me. :lol: I'm pretty much open about different games and their rules workings. I guess it's the fact that this is D&D 4E we're talking about that lets me take a much closer look at it to see if it has the right feeling for me to be D&D. As its own game, I'd not take a second look at it...wouldn't play it either, though, due to having enough stuff I want to play still, and too little time already. :lol:
 

Primal

First Post
Majoru Oakheart said:
I look for different sort of entertainment from different areas of D&D. If I'm talking with NPCs, I'm looking for entertaining dialog and a chance to test my wit against theirs. If I'm trying to fight a battle, I expect a fun, interesting, dynamic battle game.

D&D pretty much always has been a storyline that is interrupted periodically in order to play a board game in order to determine the results of a combat. During combat, I don't consider anything to be metagaming. It is purely a set of rules used to determine the outcome of an unknown situation.

Oh, metagaming definitely exists in and out of combat in D&D. Pretty much any time you use knowledge your character doesn't possess to affect any PC's actions you're metagaming. Most often in happens in combat, and I don't see how the increased focus on combat effectiveness in 4E would reduce it. And even out-of-combat actions are covered by the rules to "determine the outcome of an unknown situation" in D&D. Any task you try to perform is an unknown situation with an uncertain outcome.

I find it a bit distracting that the 'story' is interrupted by an 'action sequence' that is played like it's a boardgame. Most systems have a consistent rules set that work the same way in and out of combat.

Besides, I'm rather missing the point where anything about this is metagaming. As I said in another thread, 95% of all metagaming COULD have been roleplaying. It's all in how you phrase it:

"Quickly, when I hit it, circle around behind it. It can't hit us both if we're on opposite sides."
vs
"I activate my power, I hit for 15 damage. I can shift you one square. I'll move you towards the flank. On your turn, you can shift into flanking before attacking."

You know, the first time my group used grid and minis in battle was in 3E. We managed to play for, what, fifteen years or so without them. And still we don't always use them, because practically only spell effects require you to actually to know where everyone is. Most of the feats and actions certainly don't require it -- it is enough that you know if you can flank someone and distances between you and your enemies. And in my experience using the grid and minis seem to increase and encourage metagaming -- it's almost as if the players think: "Alright, now we have this boardgame sequence and I'll have to play tactically smart and be prepared to do anything so that my team wins".

In 3E many combat choices and feats affected your own performance only, but 4E tries to encourage more dynamic group tactics, which will probably result with a lot of metagaming and out-of-character tactical discussion during combat ("No! Don't do that, because I'm going to slide you two squares on my turn!" or "Is it okay if I move your guy with my 'White Raven Apocalyptic Assault'? Now you'll get into flanking position and since this 5th level Orc Hammerbasher is 'bloodied' and 'marked' it'll die in one round."). Anyway, I doubt that the tactical, boardgame-y nature of 4E combat will increase role-playing or in-character tactical advice -- quite the opposite, in fact.

Just cause the rules let you do something that is described in a game mechanical way doesn't mean it is metagaming to use them. In fact, it's often clearer to describe something in terms of game mechanics instead of in role playing speech. Which is why those who showed up at DDXP might have noticed all DMs telling the players "The creature is now bloodied" instead of "It looks hurt" and "It is stunned" vs "It took a hard blow to the head". It doesn't do the players a service to give the players incomplete or ambiguous information when they might have abilities that can only be used on stunned or bloodied creatures.

The game mechanics are supposed to wrap all the complexities of the couple hundred different movements, feints, shifts, facial expressions, near missed, and the like of combat into simple, easy to understand packages for us humans to understand and play a fun game with in less than 2 days. It is easier for them to do their job if they are described as "Shift an ally 2 squares" than it is if it said "One creature, designated by you can move an extra 10 feet of movement during its next turn. This movement doesn't provoke AOO, however, any move after the 10 feet does." Plus, moving a creature on its turn is a whole lot less tactically useful than being able to react in the middle of battle to changing tactics.

And The DMs could have said: "It took a hard blow to the head and is bleeding heavily. The creature is now 'bloodied'". IMO a lot of the powers and actions and situations are pretty hard to describe in character, such as 'marking' ("Stop staring at my guy! Find another guy to mark!"). Besides, it's weird that marks are erased, because realistically their effects should stack. Then again, as HPs are supposed to now mainly represent your stamina and "morale", you'd realistically expect that any physical action for extended period of time and intimidating someone would actually cause HP damage.

I think WFRP 2nd Edition does it a lot better by excluding only some tactical actions (because they're granted by Advanced Skills only) to everyone and including a diverse set of weapon qualities. For example, you don't need an X number of powers to maneuver (shift) a creature and to hit it in the same round. In my opinion it works really beautifully and without additional and unnecessary layers of complexity.

I agree that it is far more clearer to use explicit terms, but I'm already getting a headche of everything you need to track or remember in 4E combat. Not to mention that the tactical choices offered by the powers do indeed resemble tapping cards and mana in MtG -- and like in MtG, the "secondary" effects of some powers (such as all this 'sliding' and 'shifting' stuff) seem to be the main tactical reason for using them. For example, you could 'shift' or 'slide' opponents off the edge of a cliff or a bridge or into a trap or you could 'slide' an ally to safety. As I said before, this increased focus on group tactics and powers that affect your allies -- in addition to some powers seemingly existing only to provide "cool" and cinematic combat abilities which inexperienced players especially may find hard to explain in-character -- will probably increase metagaming and reduce the amount of role-playing in combat.

Personally, I especially find these OAs and 'reactions' during other characters' or monsters' turns (granted by, for example, 'Feather me yon beast!' and 'White Raven Onslaught') probably the hardest powers to explain.
 

satori01

First Post
KarinsDad said:
Allow to position?

Your rational fails. This power occurs until the end of the encounter (as long as any two allies are adjacent). Why? Because the rules says so. Your rational does not describe why that long duration of this "superior postioning" would exist. Nor does your rational describe a 2 square wide corridor scenario where the opponent is merely backing away.

And why could the allies not get this superior positioning without the Warlord's help?

Face it. This is a mystical supernatural ability that allows some weird rule modification, just because a designer thought it would be cool. :cool:

One cannot rationalize it beyond "that's how the rule reads".


And, that is a verisimilitude problem in an RPG. Not for all players, but for some. The reason we have DMs and rules in DND and do not just all do whatever we want is so that everyone at the game can have a common understanding and agreement of what is going on. When the game designers create fantastical martial powers, they force a type of sub-genre (e.g. like Wuxia or "superheroes") on an entire gaming community.

But, the most annoying thing about this power is not that one cannot really understand how or why this mystical sounding thing works (the mechanics are easy, the rational is illogical). What is most annoying is that it has no saving throw. It automatically takes away one (or more if powers can trigger off of shift) of an opponent's abilities with no chance of failure (shy of the enemy TPKing the PCs or flying or guaranteeing that two alies will never be adjacent or some other non-typical event).

I agree with your concerns regarding the power, but I disagree that history, myth, and even Martial Arts in the real world are not full of Superhuman activities. Martial Artist with extensive training are able to break bricks, using forearms and even their heads that for must of us would result in broken limbs or possibly death in terms of using your head to break concrete. Thai Kick boxing trains your reflexes to the point where practitioners reaction speed are scientifically faster than most, etc. Conan has strength, agility, and stamina that is better than any human alive, Finn the ancient Irish hero was always more clever than his opponent, and usually better at their schtict than they were.

Martial Characters should be able to perform superhuman activities, and frankly need to if you are going to remove magic item dependence, again realistically breaking concrete blocks is superhuman. Warlords are the battle tested sergeants barking out orders, that allows other characters to forgoe heistation in battle, and slide and shift with out delay....pretty simple explanation.

I think your contention is more personal dislike at a style, than anything else. I am not trying to be mean, or dismissive, but as reasonable as I have always found your rules analysis....the desire for no superhuman abilities in warrior classes is I think a minority opinion.
 

Demigonis

First Post
satori01 said:
I think your contention is more personal dislike at a style, than anything else. I am not trying to be mean, or dismissive, but as reasonable as I have always found your rules analysis....the desire for no superhuman abilities in warrior classes is I think a minority opinion.

Agreed.
 

pemerton

Legend
Primal said:
Pretty much any time you use knowledge your character doesn't possess to affect any PC's actions you're metagaming.

<snip>

this increased focus on group tactics and powers that affect your allies -- in addition to some powers seemingly existing only to provide "cool" and cinematic combat abilities which inexperienced players especially may find hard to explain in-character -- will probably increase metagaming and reduce the amount of role-playing in combat.
What does "role-playing" mean here, such that it is at odds with metagaming? If the aim of the players and GM is to create a story, for example, than metagaming is crucial, in order to make sure that the characters take actions that generate that story.

Primal said:
4E tries to encourage more dynamic group tactics, which will probably result with a lot of metagaming and out-of-character tactical discussion during combat ("No! Don't do that, because I'm going to slide you two squares on my turn!" or "Is it okay if I move your guy with my 'White Raven Apocalyptic Assault'? Now you'll get into flanking position and since this 5th level Orc Hammerbasher is 'bloodied' and 'marked' it'll die in one round."). Anyway, I doubt that the tactical, boardgame-y nature of 4E combat will increase role-playing or in-character tactical advice -- quite the opposite, in fact.
But what you are describing is the players cooperating in order to generate a satisfying story of martial adventure. And they are doing that via their PCs as the vehicles for the playing out of that story. How is this not the essence of roleplaying?

Primal said:
Personally, I especially find these OAs and 'reactions' during other characters' or monsters' turns (granted by, for example, 'Feather me yon beast!' and 'White Raven Onslaught') probably the hardest powers to explain.
Why is it hard to explain that warriors who are spurred on by an effective leader are better able to press the assault? As many others have already noted upthread, these mechanics would be problematic only for those who assume (somewhat bizarrely, it seems to me) that the turn-by-turn combat resolution mechanics actually model the gameworld, rather than constitute a mechanical abstraction from it.
 

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