Designating enemies as "allies"

[wedgeski]

In a recent session the Cleric wanted to use Healing Word on the orc prisoner being attacked by the nasty kobolds in Talon Pass. The orc was unconscious (and I implied, making death saves), and they wanted to sweat him for information on what was going on.

I would have had a hard time justifying "no" there.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you use the word ally in any other way than "someone whom the player would want to give the benefit of the spell to", then it suddenly becomes legitimate to use them for sniffing out secret traitors and so forth.

Note that there is a seperate category that should apply whenever a power has the potential to do a bad thing to a foe: "willing ally".

If I remember correctly, the games definition of ally makes the term "willing" redundant. (But I remember having seen a power that still mentioned it as such, so apparently someone forget that).

Ally is a mutual definition:
o I am your ally if I want to benefit from your power
o I want you to benefit from it.

Enemy is generally non-mutual, though there are some further limitations (valid target restrictions).

Also keep in mind: You don't have to kill anyone with dropping him to 0 hit points. You can also describe it as a knock-out blow. So if the party wants to question an NPC, he's most likely not dead when reduced to 0 hit points. (Of course, not everyone wants to use this rule "universally" - how do I knock people out with Disintegrate? )

 

[James McMurray]

(Of course, not everyone wants to use this rule "universally" - how do I knock people out with Disintegrate? )

Disintegrate his clothes so he surrenders from terror?

 

[Bagpuss]

[Also, in most cases NPCs don't have healing surges to spend, making many of the abilities not applicable even if they could be targetted.]

Wrong.

NPCs and monsters have one Healing Surge in Heroic Tier, Two in Paragon and Three in Epic. It's in the beginning of the Monster Manual.

But they can't take the Second Wind action unless it is mentioned on there stat sheet, so they have very few ways of using that healing surge. In the information about Second Wind in the Player's Handbook (love how well organised this is).

However a Cleric using Healing Word on them would be one such method.

 

[rabath]

Not to throw oil on a fire but....

Th eenemy was struck to kill and was at - hp's. Then the enemy was healed on the basis that there had een no roll to save vs. death, which for important story line characters that consideration is fine.

The other reason when the incident was discussed prior to healing taking place was that "The definition of ally was a loose term and can apply to anyone as it suited".

It was my dwarf fighter who struck the blow and I am not unhappy with the outcome, but also agree it needs clarification.

I would after readin the PHB p57 and comments here suggest that in order to be a willing target, there must be either an active state (eg in the same party - normally unless stated otherwise willingness is probablya given) or a choice made by the target. An unconscious enemy can not make the choice to be a willing target therefore their status should not change.

Or to paraphrase into a real world example - does silence mean acceptance? and then of course you have the counter arguement that in medical terms life saving treatment does not require active consent?

Then the question becomes which is true - is a cleric comparable to doctor? and what if the celric worships a god of battle?

I think the comparative of cleric to doctor is incorrect as the function of the cleric class is more than a mobile band aid dispenser in 4th ed.

 

[Kordeth]

I would argue that the DMG's rule that determining a legitimate target in the case of uncertainty applies equally to determining whether an ally-targeting power can target a particular creature as it does to whether an enemy-affecting power can target a particular creature.

In other words, if common sense allows us to say "no, you cannot throw down a bag of rats and count the rats as enemies, that's dumb and illogical," it should also allow us to say "yes, you can use a healing prayer to revive the orc you just captured, that's logical and reasonable."

 

[Saeviomagy]

If I remember correctly, the games definition of ally makes the term "willing" redundant. (But I remember having seen a power that still mentioned it as such, so apparently someone forget that).

You're totally right. At the time I'd been reading a power that specified "willing ally", and I'd thought that was necessary because the power had the potential to do harm, but it is actually redundant.

 

[Sphyre]

How I adjudicate the following targets:

You: Yourself only.

Ally: A creature you want affect and that creature accepts the effect. To be an ally both parties must be willing. You are not a possible target of the effect unless otherwise noted.

Enemy: A creature you want to affect. That creature has no choice in the matter.

Creature: If you're in the effect's way, you are affected, whether or not the target wants the effect or not, or whether the creator of the effect wants the effect or not.

It just makes sense that way to me. If you're allied that requires two party's consent. You can make an enemy out of anyone, even if they don't think of you that way. Creatures/targets in an area has no bias. It's an effect, if you're in the way, you're hit; it doesn't care whether you want to hurt or help the person, they get it because you produced the effect for better or for worse.

 

[Colmarr]

Stuff

Hi Rab (Rabath is the player that caused the cleric to need to heal an enemy.

Stuff about knocking enemies unconscious

Fair comments, but not applicable in this case. We were aware of those rules, but the "killing blow" was struck while the attacker was blinded and unaware of exactly which enemy he was attacking. Hence he chose to do lethal damage.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Then the blow should have been lethal.
That is, after all, the definition of lethal .. I mean, if you knock the wrong target unconscious, you can still kill them later.
Choosing to deal lethal should mean just that.