D&D 3E/3.5 Detect Thoughts question [3.5e]

[anest1s]

Here it goes.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Detect Thoughts (Su)

A doppelganger can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 13 negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.

The question is: Will someone targeted by the Detect Thoughts supernatural ability of a doppeganger, feel the magical attack like he would if it was a spell, or not?

By the wording it looks like it wouldn't; but I am not sure if its true, since (su) abilities are magical too.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Here it goes.The question is: Will someone targeted by the Detect Thoughts supernatural ability of a doppeganger, feel the magical attack like he would if it was a spell, or not?

By the wording it looks like it wouldn't; but I am not sure if its true, since (su) abilities are magical too.

I think, as you've broken it down, by RAW the answer would be no, and by RAI, it would also be no because Doppelgangers are supposed to be sneaky/stealthy/unnoticed. If individuals could tell when a Doppleganger was mind reading, it'd have less effectiveness.

HOWEVER there's still the mechancial "DM says roll a will save", but he doesn't need to tell you why, or what happens as a result. When you don't hear about any effects after the roll, and don't know if you passed or failed, you as the player might "feel a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack" as you wonder what that was about!

 

[Sekhmet]

I'd definitely say no. RAW states no, RAI agrees.

 

[frankthedm]

Yes the target notices if they save. The text from the Entries on saving throws don't list separate results for Spells, SLA and Su because they operate in the same way. The ways they differ from spells is called out in Special Abilities

 

[Greenfield]

The words "as the spell" seem to say that the target would know that something was wrong, if (and only if) the succeed at the Save. Fail and they're blissfully unaware. Just as if the actual spell was being used.

 

[Vegepygmy]

By the wording it looks like it wouldn't...

The doppelganger's ability works "as the spell." If you save against the spell, you feel a hostile force or a tingle. So what wording makes you think it wouldn't, exactly?

 

[Jimlock]

The words "as the spell" seem to say that the target would know that something was wrong, if (and only if) the succeed at the Save. Fail and they're blissfully unaware. Just as if the actual spell was being used.

Right on (can't XP you either...yet)

 

[anest1s]

Because it *isn't* a spell...or it would be a SLA at-will.

The fact that you can't dispel it etc etc shows that (Su) are different than (Sp) even when they say they work like existing spells.

Now, on the other hand it doesn't function in a anti-magic area...so how to be sure for which mechanics it functions just like a spell and for which not?

But I don't understand why they said *saves against a spell * when they could have wrote *saves against a magical attack * and I can't think other magical attacks except (su) and (sp)

[or maybe they meant (Ex) ones]

 

[anest1s]

Yes the target notices if they save. The text from the Entries on saving throws don't list separate results for Spells, SLA and Su because they operate in the same way. The ways they differ from spells is called out in Special Abilities

In (sp) it says they function just like the spells. In (Su) it says just that they are magical.

Now the entry in the doppelgangers ability tells that it works as the spell...but still it is just a (Su) ability, so would it follow a general rule of mind-effecting spells?

 

[Jackinthegreen]

WotC is not always known for consistent wording. In this case they most likely intend the Detect Thoughts to function just like the spell, only without requiring a slot or prep since it's always active. An attacked creature that makes the will save should feel "a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."

WotC likely made a Doopelganger's Detect Thoughts Sp because they didn't want it subject to spell resistance, counterspelling, dispelling, AoO's, or concentration checks.

On an almost totally different note, I'm going to think up the progression of a PrC called Wizard of the Coast.